Life’s Meandering with Rob Bell

Welcome to Let It Be Easy with Susie Moore.

Susie Moore:

My friend, it's hard for me to do an intro to Rob Bell. You know when you love someone, you've followed their work for so long, you've had the joy and privilege of connecting with them, and you just go, "Ooh, where do I even start with an intro, because there's so much to say?" So I thought what I'd just tell you is what Rob has done for me, what I've taken from him. I have been a fan of the RobCast, the Rob Bell podcast, for years. I used to walk around New York, especially in the winter, when I was doubting myself through different life transitions and cycles, listening to his wisdom. I almost feel like when I listen to Rob Bell, I'm more relaxed, I'm more myself, and I see the world with a really, really clear perspective. It's like he just brings you right back to the truth.

If you don't know Rob, he is a incredible speaker, New York Times Bestselling author. He's a former pastor, which is why his storytelling is so incredible and unique. I first found out about him, I believe, through the writer Elizabeth Gilbert years ago. She always talks about her best friend, Rob, so I started following him, consuming his work, and I've attended his live workshops. Truly, I cannot speak more highly about Rob Bell, but what I most want to tell you about him is this. Rob does life his way. He loves and deeply caress about people, but he is not in this world trying to prove something. He's had such a fascinating life and career with many twists and turns, and the lens with which he sees the world is so fresh and unique and inspiring, and I'm just so happy he's alive.

And when he said yes to come on the Let It Be Easy podcast, I just knew that this was going to be a really beautiful one. And our conversation is, so my friend, please enjoy Rob Bell. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Oh my gosh, how delicious to say this. Rob Bell, welcome to the Let It Be Easy podcast.

Rob Bell:

My word, do you always sing your guests names?

Susie Moore:

No, I don't. You're clearly special.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, that's like a... Yeah. All right. That gets things started... That's a vibe. All right.

Susie Moore:

Rob Bell, can I say that your podcast is my favorite podcast, actually, when we even just speak... Yes. You and I have been friends, at least in my mind, for many, many years now. Many, many years. If you don't listen to the RobCast, I reference your work a lot. I speak about your podcast. I was like, "How do I even kick this off?" Because I have so many questions, but I'd love to ask you a question that I'm asked often, and I want to hear, just hear what comes up for you. Which is, Mr. Rob Bell, you have this interpretation of the world that's really different. So we all exist in this reality, the 3D here on Earth, and you see things differently. Your lens on the world, it's so fascinating to me. And the lens always has this optimism and hope. There's an energy that you bring. How do you sustain that? Because out there, that's not true for all people. How is this the reality for you?

Rob Bell:

By embracing the pain. So when I meet somebody who their presence has some sort of something to it, something inspiring, elevating, something moving, loving. There's some gravity or lightness to them that, that's it. That's the thing. I always know, "Oh, they've suffered and they kept going." So you think about the person who's cynical, cynicism presents itself as wisdom. Like, "Oh, I get how life can burn you." But the cynic, no matter how intelligent or how funny they are, is generally somebody who stopped. The world is hard. It breaks your heart. Sometimes people can't be trusted. The earth's on fire. Yes, but they stopped there. They stopped. So it presents itself as wisdom, but it's actually a wound of some sort. At some point, life hurt them, and so they're now standing at a distance, because if you hold it at a distance, it can't break your heart.

Susie Moore:

Wow. Oh, my.

Rob Bell:

And it's especially in spiritual, self-help, motivational world, it's very easy for it to be positive, positive, positive, positive. But the thing you actually want, you have to go into the heart of all of the pain and ache and angst and give it the expression it's asking for. You might just have to cry for a couple of years. Okay, yeah. After what you've been through, that makes sense. Or whatever it is. You were raised in a home like that, where you were sent those messages about your worth, your value, your dignity. Yeah, that's something to grieve. Yeah. Give that... Yeah. Go for a long hike, beat your chest, go take a plant in the desert. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Because if you go into the heart of it, at some point you come out the other side and you're like, "I'm still here." And you become aware of how sacred and precious and wondrous it is. You know what I mean? You become aware of like; look at you and I are having this conversation.

Susie Moore:

A miracle.

Rob Bell:

At some point, you'll record this, you're recording this, so people will... What an extraordinary thing we can talk about these things. Every moment then becomes loaded with a gratitude. But you got there honestly. It's not like, "Everything's great." No, everything's not great. If you want everything to feel like everything's great, start with it's not great. And as you move through that to the other side, when you're like, "Oh no, it's good to be here." Yeah.

Susie Moore:

And that perspective, that perspective you've had so many shifts and changes in your own life. The most recent book, which I love, Find Me a Straight River.

Rob Bell:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Susie Moore:

I quote you all the time. I quote you all the time on this. You can even see me actually here doing the diagrams that you requested in the audiobook. This book is magic. I'm like, "But how does he prepare for these? Is he just off the cuff?" So many questions for you, but this Find Me a Straight River mantra-

Rob Bell:

No, not off the cuff, actually. Can you imagine? Wouldn't that be amazing if somebody could just hit record and talk for three hours, just out of their... That would be so weird.

Susie Moore:

I feel like that's what you do, or that's how it sounds. It feels like it's just... You're not reading anything, that's for sure. It's coming from some... You have an outline, I'm sure.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's paper and pencil. Paper and pen. Like, here's the next RobCast.

Susie Moore:

Oh, wow.

Rob Bell:

Right here. So, here is like... Yeah. But then there's also these size pieces of paper, and then there's also this size paper. So it depends on what we're feeling, the size of the note, the size of paper. Maybe it'll be in Sharpie or maybe it'll be in this pen. It depends. There you go, there's the-

Susie Moore:

But it's always in handwritten form, no digital forms.

Rob Bell:

Sometimes, I'll go through a period of a couple months where I'll type up a couple notes. So, for everybody who asks, "What are the routines?" I would just say whatever I'm telling you, talk to me in six months and it'll probably be different. I'm sure you've had that question about whatever the rhythms are. They're very important. It's just that each new chapter, project seems to arrive with its own idea of how it comes into the world. So you're both setting these structures up that work, but you're also listening for whatever it is to help you shape them.

Susie Moore:

And this is part of the river almost, isn't it? That when we speak about, 'Find Me a Straight River', I feel like that could shut down any conversation where someone's like, "Oh, it's not working. I had a bad year." Find Me a Straight River, just throw that in their face.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Susie Moore:

I love this audiobook. It's three hours. You must purchase it, everybody. It's incredible to listen to. And I think that this topic is actually really relevant right now. I know that specifically it's proven that the end of January, this is when we're at our most depressed, almost.

Rob Bell:

Oh, really?

Susie Moore:

I've heard statistics. Yes, especially the final Monday in January is proven, I've heard, to be maybe the most depressing. I think there's so much pressure on a new year. If you haven't come out of the gate, loads of money saved, big project launched, travel plans all tied with a bow.

Rob Bell:

Oh, wow. The last Monday, statistically, according to the research, of the month of January, has the highest rates of depression?

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Rob Bell:

Of the whole year?

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Rob Bell:

That's what you're saying?

Susie Moore:

Mm-hmm. And I was thinking-

Rob Bell:

That's a weird stat.

Susie Moore:

Isn't it interesting? It's like the month is still fresh, but hey, the new month is nearly here. February is nearly here. Mondays are depressing by nature for a lot of people. Apparently 85% of people in America don't like their work, also heard that stat today. So, I love to coach people on progress and making big moves, but we're so hard on ourselves when we're not right out of the gate, perfect at something. And I remember actually when I saw you in Brooklyn a few years ago, you said this, and again I repeat you often, you said, "Where did I learn that I was meant to be perfect, the first time?"

Rob Bell:

It's not such a weird idea.

Susie Moore:

You tell a story about butter people churning their own. I mean they're your own stories. What do we need to know Rob Bell? The end of them-

Rob Bell:

Oh, right. Right.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. What do we need to know? If it's not working out, we're hard on ourselves.

Rob Bell:

So what took me a while to understand is if you look around at how the world actually works, there are no straight lines in creation. And the only straight line you could actually point to would be the horizon, which is formed by a curved earth. So, you think about a river as it makes its way down the mountain, it meanders. You think about how a tree, its leaves grow and then die and then fall off. And very few seeds actually will become trees. So a tree is incredibly wasteful. Like what is it? 200 million birch tree seeds to create one or two new birch trees. So if you actually looked around at how it works, stars die, the created order, it finds its way and it makes way more than it actually needs, way more seeds than actually become fully realized plants. And it doesn't call that waste. It's just how it is.

So the modern mind takes this life that we each have and wonders why it didn't nail it right out of the gate. But that's completely out of step with how the whole thing actually works. And you can see what the modern system did in order to exploit the earth, in a non-sustainable way, is it had to separate us even like the environment. But even the human body is made, carbon nitrogen, of all the same elements that all of creation is made. So even to separate ourselves from the environment, you have to do that if you have nefarious goals, like to exploit it or something, or to subjugate it or dominate it as opposed to live in harmony and flow with it in a sustainable fashion. So even the idea of the environment is not actually true, because we are the environment.

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Rob Bell:

Literally, in lots of cultures when you die, they bury you in the ground and you become part of the ground. So, this separation that's so deep in the conditioning and programming for so many of us isn't actually how things are. And then you can see how hundreds of years of this, let alone the industrial revolution which cranks everything up, gets people wondering, "Oh my God, I tried that career and I just failed." No, you tried that career and found out you don't like selling pianos or whatever. I don't know what it was. Look what you learned. So just so many people walking around with failure and shame, like, "I went from one thing to another and it was just one misstep after another." No, you tried a number of different things. It sounds like an interesting life.

Susie Moore:

And the question that you ask, which I love, I hear this again and again from you, is how else would you know?

Rob Bell:

How else would it work? And think about money, think about how to handle money or how to forgive people who hurt you or sexuality or just literally how to handle; what's too many possessions? What's too much clutter in your life? How much stuff do you actually even need to live? How would anybody ever know any of this? How do we know any of this unless we didn't live this and try this? But then think about, like in the States, to get into college you take these ACT, SAT courses, tests where you fill in these bubbles, and then that's a way of judging and estimating how intelligent a person is. Even the idea of intelligence, "So-and-so went to Stanford." Well, they got into Stanford, because what? Because they filled in little bubbles.

That's such an unbelievably minuscule sliver of intelligence of how we know what we know. So this person went to whatever law school, because they're very smart, but walk outside and can't name one star. So, this idea, so this modern world, it valued certain kinds of knowing things as opposed to actual embodied knowing. Like; this person could regurgitate lots of information, great. That's very different than actually knowing things. And the way that you know things is you live them and try them and experiment, and you get some blood and dirt on your hands and you sweat and you end up with a thing in pieces at your feet and you go, "What was that?" You know what I mean?

Susie Moore:

Yeah. Oh, yes.

Rob Bell:

How else would it work?

Susie Moore:

And you joke, you say on a gravestone you can say, "An abundance of attempts."

Rob Bell:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so like in that audiobook, if all we did was change the story that you're telling, God, we'd be halfway there for you. You'd have so much more joy and freedom and just changing the story. How else would it work? How else would I know how to be me, than to be me?

Susie Moore:

And you say too, with nature, when we look at the seeds, for example, from the tree, there are no judgments around that. We're not like, "Oh, we've got to get on this. Someone's got to fix that."

Rob Bell:

Yes, exactly.

Susie Moore:

Like, "This is inefficient."

Rob Bell:

Right, right, right. Yeah. Right, right. Trees aren't like, "God, I'm having a bad day." It's just not even a... Yeah, and that's what the beauty of the... Just the pure being of creation doesn't have any of this, doesn't have any of the stress or anxiety. Yeah, that's how things work. Things die. Things are born. Things get planted. Even the things that live, they live, because they were planted. And to be planted is to be buried in the earth, which is what we do when things die. So even the death is built into the life itself.

Susie Moore:

Do you find, Rob, that you go back to your own history for proof of this if you ever need to be encouraged? I know that you say that you started your podcast, because something didn't work out that you hoped was going to work out, but it led to, "Hey," you with your microphone.

Rob Bell:

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Susie Moore:

I think using your son's microphone. It was like a very humble experiment, and here we are.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. You don't know what things will work, will take on a life of their own, will connect. You don't know. So, it's like the abundance of attempts. Yeah. How else would it work? So what happens over time is that just becomes normal, not strange, or you just get more and more fine with that. You just make peace with that on the front end.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. I mean, I always look back to myself like, "Oh, I thought that something wasn't working," but then I just stuck at it a bit longer. Or, I pivoted. I think we'll have these histories with the universe somehow. And one question I wanted to ask you, because this comes up for me a lot too, is people ask, "Well, how do you know when it's time to give up on something?" Just say you're like, "Okay, this is my dream." You're going for it, going for it. And there have been the abundance of attempts with a good attitude. It's not working. Is it like; you're one step away, like the guy digging for diamonds, you know that meme, and he's really close and he throws away the shovel like, "Oh, so close." Or, are you like, "You know, time to meander around that river"?

Rob Bell:

Okay, couple thoughts. First off, the interesting thing about the word dream, I don't have any dreams, because the nature of the word dream is that dream has a very strong energetic imprint. So notice how the word dream, what it does at a very subtle energetic level is keep the thing at a distance. So a dream has a subtle undertone of not real. So when the person....

One time, where was I last fall? Somewhere in Colorado. And a guy asked, "I have a whole bunch of dreams." And I said, "Do this for... There was a group of people, I said, "Do this for me. I'm going to say this word and you give me the hand motion. Give me a physical gesture for this word. Dream." Because he just used the word dream. You could see how it was dominating his even nervous system. So, "Dream." And he reached forward like he was trying to touch something that was too far out of his grasp. Instantly, that's what his body did. I was like, "So what does the word dream do for you?" And he said, "Oh, it keeps it permanently out of grasp." I said, "So now try this word instead of dream, next step." He's like, "Oh, I could do a next step."

So, my dream is to have a... Hold on, back up, back up, back up, back up. Let's talk about a next step. Because whatever that thing is, the only way you'd ever get there is just humbly, quietly, day after day. And what's also interesting about this diamond digger meme is the diamond digger meme, which I haven't seen that before, so that's quite funny. But just hearing you say it, notice again the energetic imprint that it does at a soul level with that, is it implies there's a diamond.

So what's interesting is the thing about the meme, having just heard it from you, is it looks like it's about wealth and abundance, but it's actually about scarcity. There's a [inaudible 00:21:48]. So, this is why those singing shows when the person's about to go on stage and they say, "This is my one shot." No, it's not your one shot. You can sing in the subway, you can sing walking your dog. It's not your one shot. This is my one shot to what? To be happy? To make it? So it appears like the person's about ready to go on national television, have their great moment, but it's actually driven by scarcity. There's not enough. This is my one shot. If this shot doesn't become a thing, then I'm in trouble. So that's actually scarcity. So no wonder it leaves people just gasping for oxygen, as opposed to...

Susie Moore:

Yeah, you're right. It's like, "Well, those are the diamonds and if you chuck the shuffle behind you, that's it." That was your opportunity.

Rob Bell:

Right, right, right, right. Right. Think about this. Oh, here's an example. A guy was telling me about trying to get a book deal, make money writing a book. So he was trying to put together a proposal, so he could get paid for this book. I was like, "Do you like writing books?" "Well, this is my first book." "Do you like writing under pressure? Do you like writing as an art form, but you have to deliver by a certain date? How many hours a day do you write?" He's like, "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know." "So you're trying to get money for a thing that you don't know if you enjoy. Just a casual observation, perhaps you ought to see if you enjoy doing this before you try and get somebody to give you money for something that you might actually not enjoy."

So you can see so much of that; "Well, as soon as I have this much money and that house," have you lived in a house like that? What does the gardener cost? What are the property taxes? How do you know what comes with that? Let's ask a completely different set of questions. What would you wake up in the morning and you were going to do that day that you would think, "God, this is awesome." Because notice instantly the size of your house, the amount of money you have, what people think, how many followers, immediately those questions fade. And what would you, in the morning, if you woke up and you were going to do that, you're like, "Oh God, that would be awesome." You know what I mean?

Susie Moore:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And I'm happy that we're talking about money, because another audiobook, it's endless, the joy is grabbing the bag.

Rob Bell:

Oh, grabbing the bag?

Susie Moore:

I want to laugh when I say it. I know your son's friend-

Rob Bell:

Oh, yes. He'd go to the... I know that phrase was out there, but my son's friend is just legendary. My son's friend, by the way, this is how funny he is. He'll say stuff like, "Hey, hey, how you doing?" He'll be like, "I'm doing great, other than the arrest warrant." He just says stuff. He's so great. Yeah, he would do that. He had worked at this coffee shop for whatever, 11 bucks an hour. And, "What are you up to? And he's like, "Going to grab the bag."

Susie Moore:

It's just so funny.

Rob Bell:

"Do you mean to go work, so that you could get paid?" "Yeah. I'm going to go grab the bag." So great.

Susie Moore:

It's so great. And this audiobook, Grabbing The Bag: a few thoughts on money. See this, again, once again my friends, this is the lens with which Rob Bell sees the world.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, definitely.

Susie Moore:

First of all, I always feel calmer after listening to you and as if I've been whacked in the face with truth or something. Like, I'm in my world, there's my goals and there's all the things. And then I just listen to you and it's like; Find Me a Straight River, Grabbing The Bag. It's just-

Rob Bell:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love that you appreciate... If it's three hours long, then call it a few thoughts. See? So that's, once again, I'm laughing. Do you know what I mean?

Susie Moore:

It's so funny. It's not everything you need to know about money. It's like; how are people so funny?

Rob Bell:

As soon as it's going to be that long, but it's going to just be a few thoughts, if I'm already laughing, that's the only way into some of this. So much of this, you have to come in through the side door. So if you're already smiling, it already has a lightness, there's a looseness. Well, now you can actually wrestle with things and learn and grow and be shaped. That's how it's worked for me.

Susie Moore:

I would love you to tell, if you're willing, Rob, the water-skiing story, because you open your audiobook with this.

Rob Bell:

Oh, right, right, right, right.

Susie Moore:

And it's good. And I was like right there with you. And I was like, "Oh...

Rob Bell:

Oh. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. This was when I was probably 15 and I was obsessed with a particular kind of boat called a MasterCraft, the best water ski boat, that and Ski Nautiques. And we met this family, our family became friends with this family, and the dad was a doctor, which at that time in the Midwest in the '80s, we're like, "Whoa, a doctor. That means they had money." And they had a MasterCraft. And the son, because I was obsessed with water-skiing, the son was a water skier and competed in tournaments, which for me was like, "Whoa."

And they took us out one day at this lake, because they had a second house.

Susie Moore:

What?

Rob Bell:

And, so I could get to water ski behind their MasterCraft. What was I, 16, 15? It's like being in the velvet rope, being invited into the room behind the room. And I'll never forget the kid and my friend, who was a year older than me, he went skiing and he fell and the dad pulled the boat around and went, "I bet you're glad this isn't a tournament weekend." Because the kid would compete. The thing that I love that was just an expression, almost like an art form, for this kid, was like; his dad pushed him to compete in it. And the idea on this beautiful sunny day at this lake and this boat that they had found a way with their wealth, they'd literally... It was almost admirable the creativity it took to find a way to make the situation tense and not fun.

It was literally like, "Oh." It etched. And those things when we're young that etch on the soul; oh, money doesn't equal happy. These people have all this money and they have managed to use the money to make themselves miserable. It was really, really... It's almost like if somebody's doing it with the thing that you think is closest to your heart, it's like that's how the curriculum...

Kristen and I always talk about that your life is a curriculum that you're learning. But what's really fun, just to add, we call this advanced player move, is you're the one who set up the curriculum. So, when you go through something really stretching or difficult or whatever, traumatic, some of those things can't be explained, and that's not a helpful way to think about it. But sometimes, when you're in something and just go, "This is too weird, it's too bizarre, it's too painful. There's obviously something going on here for me to learn. What's the curriculum here?" And then you just, "What did I set up here? What did earlier me do when I set up the curriculum?"

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Rob Bell:

And apparently it was like, "Hey, we need to show you." It's like, "Hey, dear future Rob Bell, early on, we need to get really clear here. If you have money, that does not mean that suddenly you're happy."

Susie Moore:

Right, because you're this teenager who loves this thing that is so joyful and innocent, and just like, "Yes." And then this family has everything and then they suck the essence. All the things that we... And we see this again and again, this isn't one isolated thing, but it stuck with you, because it means something. And what a great insight, almost like that realization early. I love how you say, "Yeah, money and happy are two different things." And then you also say that money is a vehicle where we put a lot of our fears. I absolutely think this is true.

Rob Bell:

And that was one of the things at the heart of Grabbing the Bag, was that money is two things. Money is facts and figures. If it costs $10 and you have $9, you don't have enough money. So there's a basic empirical math, accountant, tax regulation, all that. And then money is also an energetic exchange that is constantly reflecting back to you scarcity, abundance, generosity. It's constantly reflecting back to you what's going on inside of you.

Susie Moore:

Isn't it interesting that dance between the frame? Because you say framing and flow, you say facts and figures. You also say, and I all absolutely believe this, that when... Because the facts and figures, yes, spreadsheets, we all have a certain amount of money in the bank. Maybe you have a certain amount of debt, maybe have a certain salary. Those things all exist, concrete. And then there's the story around your relationship with all of those things. And you say that the story can somehow change the figures. And this isn't just dream of having a $10 million check. It's actually the story, the dance between the concrete reality, measurable, and then the energetic piece. How do they interact?

Rob Bell:

Well, I just started to notice that the people who are generous... First off, people who are generous never use the word. Same with brave, same with curious generally. People who are the thing, generally use the word, they don't use the word, because it's just how they are. For them it's just Tuesday. You know what I mean? But I noticed the people who saw money, it's almost like there was a large front door and a large back door. Money comes in. It wasn't that they weren't responsible, it wasn't that they didn't have an eye on it. They just understood that it took part in this larger receiving and passing along. And the more loosely... This paradox of being careful and paying attention, but also holding it loosely. So no, it matters and it's just money. They held these to intention, because sometimes you need to be reminded; it's just money. And sometimes you need to be like, "Wait, wait, wait. Let's sketch out that budget again."

And it's the dance between the two. Anytime someone goes, "Oh, I don't even worry about the money. I just trust it'll be there." That person is living in a van down by the river. The person who's like, "I watch every penny. I'm not going to get screwed by... That person tends to have less and less, while even they may be stacking their pile of gold, less and less joy, less and less freedom. That's why you can often see when people, new money, when people get money for the first time, you'll often notice a weird split between them of they want to go get the Range Rover, which is classic new money move, but they also often get super, hyper protective of it. So there's this desire to splurge and show everybody what they got and enjoy it, but also this tightening down, because... And so you see each of those are energetically, neither one's going to... So there's the joy and the celebration, and then, "Yeah. Great." And there's also, if you grab it too tightly... Yeah, so you're constantly moving between these two. Isn't that fascinating how that works?

Susie Moore:

Yeah, absolutely. And I've erred more on the, "Oh, I trust. I have a trusting. I believe in abundance, blah, blah, blah," but also use this word shrewd. And that is also what I have become too, especially with many moving parts in your life. And you share these great quotes around it from the... There's so much to talk about just on this topic. You tell the story, I heard it in Brooklyn, and I heard it again in Grabbing the Bag, about The White Stripes.

Rob Bell:

Oh, right, right, right. Yeah.

Susie Moore:

Could you tell us that?

Rob Bell:

Yeah. I was on tour in 2006, and I was doing The Glass house in Pomona, and The White Stripes at that time were just exploding as a band. They had done that same venue a couple nights earlier, and I was talking to the house manager, "Oh, The White Stripes were here." And he's like, he was just telling me about it, and he said, "You know what's interesting is Jack White," who's gone on to do a thousand things and is a wildly, propulsively creative individual. He said, "Interesting." He said that they travel with an accountant who's really, really on it, really good. And to this day, anytime I see Jack White, I'm like, "That guy who is known as... He just follows the muse, like the ultimate artist. Now he's playing with this band, now he's doing upholstery, now he has a design studio. Now he's doing this record over here, almost like, "Man, he's just following the muse."

Yes. And down the hall, there's a guy named Arnold in a sweater vest-

Susie Moore:

With a clipboard.

Rob Bell:

... who's making sure that this thing has integrity all the way through. And every time you see, as a general rule, somebody doing really interesting things in a sustainable way, probably somewhere, if it's not them, they have built some coherent structure that's paying attention to what needs to be payed attention to. And that old world, like, "I'm not going to sell out, man. No, it doesn't matter about the money." Yes, you're typing that on your Mac. Someone bought that Mac, someone bought that laptop. It's almost like there's an element of just growing up. And yeah, you pay attention to the... Just give them a little bit of energy and then they won't haunt you down the road. Just a little.

Susie Moore:

Is this something that you've learned the hard way, or did you always know this? Are you always conscious, in your own life, of the specifics? And then just the... Because you also say, and I love this, I love this, but it's your money and it's not your money.

Rob Bell:

It's not my money. I think for Kristen and I, it evolved over time, because we were following something. We were doing this work that brought us great joy, and we kept arranging our life, so that we could follow its next; what's the next chapter looking like? And, so gradually just realizing, "Oh yeah, so what would that require? What would that look like? Okay, all right. Let's do that." Live with less, go here, go there, buy that. Don't buy that. You just start to realize that paying attention to this, if you line it up, well, we would talk about airtight integrity all the way down. Then you can do the thing that you're going to do next. And yeah, gosh, I wouldn't say it's more... If I say it's more like a feeling, that sounds kind of squishy, but it is a sense of, "Oh yeah, this'll work. This'll work. We'll be okay. We'll be good." Yeah and that weirdly works out.

It's hard to answer the question, because it's much easier if the person's sitting in front of you and you go, "Okay, so right now, what's the project? How are you doing? What do you need? What don't you need?" Like your work is, "Let's get granular." And in my experience, pretty much a hundred percent of the time, anybody asking these sorts of questions about, "How do I? I can't, I need. How do I make...

Oh, here's an example. During COVID, I was doing these sessions with people on Zoom, and a woman began-

Susie Moore:

Oh, I love those sessions.

Rob Bell:

... the session, she began the session with, "How do I make money?" And I was like, "First off, I'm the last guy to talk to you about that. But just for fun, let's hit the ball back and forth across the net and see what happens." So I was like, "So tell me about yourself." And she just launches into like, "Well, I was an executive chef, then I did this, then I did that." So we had to clean up some shame around all the different things she'd done and say, "Well, it sounds like an interesting life. Sounds like you've had a wonderful path where you follow something for a while, then you follow something else." So we had to clean up the shame around she hadn't done one thing and just sort of...

But then, what's interesting, is one of the things she mentioned was a chef. And I was like, "Could you teach somebody how to cook for themselves?" She's like, "Yeah, I actually love teaching." So right now we're in lockdown. Hundreds of millions, billions of people are having, for the first time, to cook for themselves. "Can people hire you to teach them over Zoom how to cook some basic meals?" "Oh, I never thought of that." And then we went back through the various things she'd told me she'd done over the years. I was like, "Well, can somebody pay you to teach them how to do that? Can somebody hire you to do that for them?" "Well, I'd never thought of that." But in my experience, there's generally all sorts of things that are just sitting right there in plain sight.

Susie Moore:

Do you think that the average human... No, I agree. I agree. This is my point of view. I want to see if you agree. Do you think that the average human has so many more options and possibilities? And this is coming back to the river, there are so many ways we can go, and it's so easy to be stuck on the one thing or stuck on the one disappointment. Or, "There is one way to get to the thing," and that's scarce.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. The problem is the diamond meme.

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Rob Bell:

The problem is the idea there's a diamond down there, so just keep digging. Well just look up. There's a tree above you. It's an avocado tree. You can sell those by the side of the road for a dollar a pop. What are you doing? Stop digging. Get a bucket. But this move from... It's almost like a needle right in the center of the bean that's just slightly over to one side. If it tips from lack and scarcity to generativity and abundance, that's a deep, deep tiny tick that changes everything. And that's not a squishy manifesting, "You just make stuff... No, that's just putting on a different pair of glasses.

Susie Moore:

And is this work that you do consciously now, Rob? Or are you naturally in this place? Is your lens just always dialed into this abundance? Is there a practice that you have? How do you remain day-to-day this way?

Rob Bell:

Yes, and yes. Yes, it becomes natural. And yes, you still have the moments of; "Hold on, I've been trying to solve this problem. There's got to be some solution sitting here that's more elegant, simpler, cleaner." It's almost like, "Whoa, I'm obviously not seeing something here." So it's just a trust, like a calm trust, or even just, "I need somebody to help me with that. So now I'm just looking. Now my radar's on." Kristen and I will often use that phrase, like, "Now, our radar's on. We were doing this. We have everything we need, always. But this thing right here, huh. There's somebody who could probably walk with this on this thing, this question, this whatever thing about the house." And yeah, people come along. It really does work that way.

Susie Moore:

When you say, "We have everything we need," I don't really hear people say that very often. It's like, "Oh no, there's a gap. Oh, there's my deficit." We have everything we need, wow. That's fresh.

Rob Bell:

You won't believe the number of people who; "No, I need this, I need this, I need this." And when you just begin to be present with them and just start asking questions, they discover they're actually doing fine. And then when they're like, "Yeah, but I don't know how to do X, and this thing I'm doing requires that." Okay, so now we're looking for that person. So that in some ways is, "Okay, so you need that person? Okay, so now we're looking for that person." You wouldn't believe the number of times people say, "Wait, so-and-so did email me the other day, and they do have a background," just how often it's right under their nose.

Susie Moore:

That's the next step. That's the next step that you just described. Yeah.

Rob Bell:

Or the number of people who I will say to them, "This thing that you're talking about that you do, have you invited people or offered anybody this?" And they'll go, "A couple of people recently have asked me if I would be willing to." I've just seen it happen so many times that it's almost absurd. So I now just begin with some... That's just a better starting point, I think.

Susie Moore:

And speaking of even working with people or making your gifts available in ways like, "Oh, I never thought about that." Like the chef or the person who could make something else helpful or valuable to someone else. Even the way that you do it, Rob, it's so uniquely you. I have my thoughts sometimes, I'm like, "Wow, Rob could have really go hard selling this stuff." It's just my own thinking. And then you say... Oh, yeah?

Rob Bell:

Oh, by the way, I didn't mean to interrupt, but here's one.

Susie Moore:

Okay.

Rob Bell:

Here's one that gets to it really quickly. How much less square footage would you live in, so that you could do this thing that you're telling me that you want to do? And what's so fascinating is how many people are like, "Would you live in less square footage?" "Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure." "Oh, okay. So, how much money is that, right there?" It would be how much cheaper to live in a smaller place. How many people immediately... "How many cars do you have?" "Three." "How many do you need? "We can probably get by with two." "Okay." "Would you get by with two, or get by with one, so that you could do this?" "Yeah, I'd do that."

Or the person who has this, well, there's some projects, some art, something, like, "Yeah, but I need to... Okay, would you work... I'll just pick a random place, "Would you work somewhere 20 hours a week, so that you could do this thing the rest of the time and that would fund this?" "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I'd do that." How many people instantly, you just give it some sort of very minimal structure and they go, "Oh yeah, I'd trade that for that." "This freedom that you want, this whatever you want, would you go with less over here, so that you could have that freedom?" As soon as you just get granular with the trade off, the number of people who are like, "Yeah, totally. I'd totally do that." "Oh, okay."

Susie Moore:

And that's both, again, the facts and figures.

Rob Bell:

Yes, exactly.

Susie Moore:

A literal, okay, down sell and a relationship. I think we're afraid of what people will think, like, "Oh, a big downsize."

Rob Bell:

No, always, always. And so what's interesting is always you begin to, quite quickly, you can see what's on the person's shoulder. A mentor, extended family, expert, somebody on TikTok.

Susie Moore:

Ex-husband, ex-wife.

Rob Bell:

Ex, ex, ex. Yeah, because the messaging and the conditioning began young and was very clear. So generally we, at some point, we have to remove that voice. It's no longer helpful and bless it, that was helpful for a while. That tribe shaped you, helped you. So it can't be an anger thing. It has to be a, "That voice helped for a while, taught you how to ride a bike, helped you get through college. Great. It's just now, it's not so helpful."

Susie Moore:

And this is also all explained in Find Me a Straight River, when you speak about the shrubs, the dangerous animals, financial worries being a modern equivalent.

Rob Bell:

Right, right, right. Right, right, right. We come by this very honestly. It's almost like biologically and cellular wise. We come by it through tens of thousands of years. No wonder it's in there.

Susie Moore:

There's a word I learned from you; [inaudible 00:48:14] next year. That's a good one.

Rob Bell:

Oh, right. That's the never and not enough.

Susie Moore:

Yeah.

Rob Bell:

But doesn't know when it's enough.

Susie Moore:

Yes. And you're like, "How will you know?" I always remember, did you watch Breaking Bad?

Rob Bell:

Oh my word, yes.

Susie Moore:

Oh yeah. Do you remember towards the end when he has all that money, and Skyler, his wife, lifts up the top and it's just like cash, cash, cash. They can't even store it. And she's like, "When is it enough?" And I thought of that actually when I learned this word, [inaudible 00:48:48] next year, because we don't actually know.

Rob Bell:

It has no shape or form. It's the same thing as the person who hates the government. You can't hate the government. That's not a thing. It has to be people who made policies. But a vague thing keeps you completely locked, because there's nobody... So the mind, the heart can't do anything with something that vague, because it has no shape or form. You have to actually talk about the shape or form. The same with this, you have to actually get to, "What's the number?" Oh, you don't have a number. Got it. Got it. Got it.

Susie Moore:

I realized-

Rob Bell:

You don't a number.

Susie Moore:

... that I didn't have a number actually. I'm like, "Just more."

Rob Bell:

Yes, exactly.

Susie Moore:

Always more. More, more, more. And I'm like, "What's my number?" Now I have a number, but I was like, "Huh, well, always more, more, more." That's just, isn't that the thing?

Rob Bell:

You think about the entire economic system of the Western world is this person's the CEO, their job is that last year the company grew by 5%. So this year it needs to grow by 7%. Why? Because the shareholders need a return and they need a greater return. Why? So the pile out in the backyard can be taller, but it's divorced from; this person has a little restaurant. They make these meals, people in the neighborhood come in, pay them, they eat. It's an actual real world exchange.

So as soon as you divorce it from a real world exchange of goods and services and people doing what they do and other people paying them for it, which is what we all are... As soon as you move it to... It's now called growthism. So this is why when people talk about capitalism is evil, the impulse is correct, but they got it all bound... Capital is fine. The problem is growthism, which is what they're properly naming is wretched, because what it is, is the company needs to grow. Why? Because the people need greater return. Why? Because it has to grow. Why? Because the marker for that government is the GDP and the GDP has to grow of that country. Why? Because it needs to be bigger. Why? It's like TurtleBall with the-

Susie Moore:

We never really ask why, do we? We're just like, "Well, that's just... Yeah.

Rob Bell:

So you think about, once again, going back to nature, a healthy plant has to be pruned. It has to be pruned. It has to have some cut off, so that its roots can feed the branches. So it completely, it's just all up and to the right endlessly. But very few things in nature even, most things have some form of pruning.

Susie Moore:

And the enough question doesn't exist really outside of that.

Rob Bell:

Right. Right. Right, right, right. So you just have more and more and more. Yeah, right. So with people, that's why it's much... For people caught in that, like the person who's like, "I have to get whatever. I have to get more followers." Well, what is the nature of the work? "Okay, so if you showed up and seven people were there and you did this work that you do for the seven people, would that not be enough?" "Oh, man. Yeah, I'll do seven people." "How about a hundred?" "Okay." "How about 17?" "Okay." Okay, so apparently what you love is to be in a room with these people and do whatever it is you do. Apparently that's what you love.

Susie Moore:

Right, and everything else is a judgment.

Rob Bell:

Well, everything else is the mind. And so here's what's interesting about the mind. The mind creates templates, from scratch, that it then judges itself against. So think about the person who says, "I lost my patience. I should be farther along by now." Okay, wait, wait. I should be farther along compared to what? The other times you came to planet Earth? You know what I'm saying? Or think about the person who... Like, After the pandemic, how many of us had a low level of fatigue? It's almost just like weary. And the person, "God, I have this low level fatigue. I feel like I shouldn't be this tired." Why? Because after the other pandemics you've been through, you had more energy?

The mind is masterful at creating a scale that it judges itself against, but it created the scale. You can't be the student and the teacher grading the exam. You can't be both. So, that's why it's always really, really important to ask a whole different set of questions, which is; who are you? What do you want to do next? What do you need to do that?

Susie Moore:

Yeah. Yeah. I love your Akiva story. I've quoted it, again. I've quoted you.

Rob Bell:

What is it? Who are you and what are you doing here? Yeah.

Susie Moore:

Who are you and What are you doing here?

Rob Bell:

And it will always, always... I use the word elegance in place of the word simple, because many people think simple, earlier simple, but it's the simplicity after complexity. There's a simplicity before complexity, which is somewhat naive and young. Then there's the complexity that you find yourself in. Then on the other side, you move into another kind of simplicity after the complexity. In scientific circles or something just call that elegance. There will always be an elegance to it. This is especially for educated, accomplished, successful, quote-unquote, successful people. It'll always feel a little offensive, because the next step will be like... I've literally had people be like, "But I could do that." Isn't it lovely, that being you is something that you can actually do? You know what I mean? Because just all the bonkers messages we get about how it has to be hard, has to be... All the trainers on Instagram, "You need to be better yesterday than today. If you're sweating, someone else is sweating more. If you're not all that... God, just exhausting. "If you're not working right now, someone else is hustling harder." Oh, God. Stop.

Susie Moore:

It's awful.

Rob Bell:

You're ridiculous. You're ridiculous. Whereas one of my sons says, "Yeah, I was a sophomore once." He says so many things, he'd be like, "Yeah, I was a sophomore." Meaning, "Yeah, I went through that developmental stage and I kept going." That line is such a good one. "Yeah, I was a sophomore."

Susie Moore:

I was reading a book recently, and it reminded me of your work. Do you like Pema Chödrön's work?

Rob Bell:

Oh, I've heard of it. Yeah.

Susie Moore:

Oh, yeah. She wrote this great book called, "When Things Fall Apart", and she's like, "Get rid of that-

Rob Bell:

Yes. Yes, I know that.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. She wrote that. She said, "Get rid of that magnet on your fridge that says, 'Every day in every way, I'm getting better and better.'"

Rob Bell:

Exhausting. Exhausting.

Susie Moore:

She actually says, "Abandon hope. Hope isn't... And I was like, "Oh."

Rob Bell:

Yes.

Susie Moore:

"Wow. That's not what we're told in self-help culture." It's like, "Hope, you are getting better and stronger every day." And this is why I think there's so much laughter in the work that you do, with your content that you create solo, in the group sessions that you lead, which have been so fun for me to be part of. There's so much laughter, and I think it's almost like this universal recognizing itself somehow.

Rob Bell:

Yes.

Susie Moore:

What is it? Why is this funny in the end? Some of the things are like...

Rob Bell:

Because at some point... Okay, so for most people the thought is reality. And so we attach to the thought. So here's an example. I am sad. So, the experience of sadness becomes an over attachment to the experience of sadness or to the thought, "I am sad," to the point at which that's all the person can see. As opposed to, "Oh, look, I'm carrying around some sadness." It's very easy for, "I am sad," to become, "This is who I am." Or if someone's been through trauma or someone's been through what they would consider a failure, that is just, "I am this."

The whole sense of self gets overtaken by the sense, perception, experience, trauma, pain. Every major wisdom tradition is about learning to witness to what it is. So the moment you move from, "I am sad," to, "I have some sadness I'm carrying around," well, who is the you that the sadness is happening within? Because that you isn't sad. The sadness is something that is happening within something larger. And so as you begin to be more and more grounded in the witness to the experiences you're having, you are free to be much more honest about, "This is really painful. This is really... Because there is a you that exists farther, wider, deeper, more infinite and indestructible. This is every major wisdom tradition summarized in 10 seconds.

But as you begin to witness to it, you then come to see the absurdity of it. Think of every major wisdom tradition, the wisest ones always have a wink. You can't get there through the heaviness. So think about the person-

Susie Moore:

It's like a little portal. Yeah, it's like a portal into something.

Rob Bell:

So think about the person, because this was me. This was me 15 years ago, "Man, we're just changing the world. I'm here to change the world." Oh God, it's so heavy. But the person with a wink, it's like, "Well, what a wondrous, weird, heartbreaking, mysterious, euphoric, dangerous thing to be a human being." But there are some people who need drinking water, and there are some people who need better legal representation and there are some systems that are really broken that could use some help. And there are some kids who need... Let's try. Let's do something with that. Let's see if we can help. Those are the people who actually, actually do move the needle on things. So this is not a squishy, vague, this is how justice is served and the poor are helped. When you meet those people who are really doing that along, they always have a wink. They always have a, "I know this is really bad, but yeah, we're seeing what we can do."

Susie Moore:

It's like if we look back at what we used to believe about a person or about an event, we're like, "I'm going to... And then you go, "Oh."

Rob Bell:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I did, the past two days, did two days here in Ojai, where people come and we sit, for two days, and people one-by-one sit across from me and tell me... And one of the people shared about a horrible stalker situation, like a nightmare involving cyber hacking and flat tires and just really, really, really, really, really so violating. And they said, as they shared this, they said, "You know what? This is really good to speak this." And everybody was witnessing to it, like, "Well, this is a very brave person who's even gotten through this. How does a person even... And obviously there's going to be trauma therapy, et cetera, et cetera, but when they told some of the stories about what this stalker has done, as they worked through it, you could just see about 10 minutes in they started laughing about this horrible thing they'd been through. And it didn't minimize it, but you could see how deep and strong and indestructible the you behind the you, behind the you is. You could see it.

I was watching this room full of people from around the world who are sitting there listening to this story going, "Oh, this is everybody's nightmare. And this person is radiant with strength," as they're in their tears talking about how violating it's been. And by the end, they were... I know, this is the weirdest thing ever. They were finding their way to the, I wouldn't say lightness, but lightness. This is the weirdest, randomest, "How did this happen to me?" It's not without tears, not without heartache, not without massive legal bills to hire people to try to get restraining... So it's all that, but you start asking people questions about what it's been like to be them. And we keep going through the tears, like where you and I started, wherever, an hour ago.

You go into the pain, into the heartache, into all the shattered stuff. There is a you in there behind the you that we discover is resilient and indefatigable and able to witness to all of it. And yeah, you might even find yourself laughing. We even will say; it got so bad, all you can do is laugh. Yeah, that's all you need to know right there. That's all you need to know right there.

Susie Moore:

It's like the eternal.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, yeah

Susie Moore:

Yeah, the eternal somehow is there. Yeah.

Rob Bell:

And actually, because I grew up in a very safe, comfortable, loving family, but my first job, I got a job as a pastor, and that job was like funerals, prison visits, suicide calls. So I was like 25. I remember at 25, 26 doing a wedding, a funeral for somebody who had just gotten married, doing a funeral for somebody who had died of aids. And in the '90s, people were just barely beginning to talk about that. And just being way over my head in these situations. Visiting people in maximum security prison and just way over my head. So you're just seeing a front row to the ways that life can just wreck you.

So I had to come up with some way to handle what I was seeing. I remember doing a funeral, and that's probably 26 or 27. Yeah, I would've been 26 or 27. And a guy's wife had died. And I got to the chapel where the funeral was going to be, and the man was there, the funeral home people were there, the woman, his wife's body was in the casket in the lobby. And I walked in and he's standing there over her casket all alone in this big atrium. And I walked up to him and put my arm around him, and he just kept looking at his wife saying, "She was such a good woman. She was such a good woman. She was such a good woman."

So yeah, all your questions, it's like there's got to be some other way to see this than; just do the right thing. A plus B equals C, go to a good school, work hard, make good money. That thing kind of works, and then it also doesn't, and I'm sure a number of your listeners are like, "A plus B doesn't always equal C." You find a good partner, settle down, get a nice place, take a vacation, get good jobs, and then you find out they've had a secret lover in Bangkok. You know what I mean? You find out, like, "What?" Yeah, sometimes A plus B does equal C, and sometimes you followed it and were the loyal daughter and the good son and the good soldier, and it completely goes left and wrecks you. And so at some point how... Yeah, so that's what happened to me.

Susie Moore:

It's like the only sane way of being, almost, when you come back to the way that you... Because you could also do everything right. It's happened even to a lot of my friends who've worked hard, gone to college. I'm reading now about all the tech layoffs, a couple of my friends... I come from the tech and it's like, "Well, they've done everything right. They work at Google," or they did until yesterday. They did everything right. And I also read this study, it's pretty famous. I'm sure you've come across it about people sharing the worst things that have happened to them. So, going through cancer, being canceled, a celebrity was talking about being canceled, losing a job after 30 years. All these things. And it was so interesting, because no one said they'd take it back.

Rob Bell:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susie Moore:

I was like, "Huh." This is also getting in on the secret. You speak about being in on the joke.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. You ask people; name the three or four events that most shaped you? No one ever says, "I went to The Bahamas one time." You know what I mean? Never.

Susie Moore:

"Had the best meal of my life."

Rob Bell:

Never. "I got this new pickup truck." Never. We'll never say stuff like that. So, it just works differently than a lot of us were taught.

Susie Moore:

And one more thing I want to say that I love that you did an episode on once was... I know our time's up. Five more minutes, Rob, please.

Rob Bell:

Sure.

Susie Moore:

I'm keeping you. You tell the story about this woman who worked in this hospital her whole life, and then one day it was her last day, and you're like, "Can you imagine her getting in her... It's almost like you see things from this bird's eye view somehow.

Rob Bell:

Where was I? Where was that? Yeah, I was at a party. You know that thing at a party? Like; who are you? What do you do? That whole sort of; "Okay, okay. Would you like a drink?"

Susie Moore:

Yeah.

Rob Bell:

And he was like, "I was a nurse for 35 years." "Oh really?" Which generally is like, "Oh, okay." And the person who was standing next to her, "And what do you do?" I was like, "Oh, really? Was there a day that was your last day?" She was like, "Yeah." So there was a day "Did you have a box with a coffee mug and pictures of your grandkids that you carried out to your car?" She was like, "Yeah, I had something." "What was it like to walk out after going to that hospital for 35 years, most days? What was it like to walk out to your car for the last time?" She told me what it was like. You could tell she was like, "Who is this guy?" Yeah. I was like, "The next morning, when you woke up and you didn't go to the hospital, what was that like?" Yeah, it's like you're at the party and you meet that person and then we move on. You're like one question away, and then it got really, really interesting.

And then, "Okay, how many months is it? What's it like now, after you did that all those years and now you don't? How do you think about your life after that was what you... You're like one question away, two questions away often from whole worlds of... It's all right there.

Susie Moore:

This is abundance thinking.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. It's all right there.

Susie Moore:

You did a great class. Please tell us what's coming up for you, where people follow you, find out more. You did this amazing class once called, "On How to be Curious," if you remember that one? That was such a good one.

Rob Bell:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Susie Moore:

Are you bringing these back?

Rob Bell:

I don't know.

Susie Moore:

Please tell everyone. I've got one final question for you. I've got two... Yeah?

Rob Bell:

We just published... I have two new books that just came out, two of my plays. So, there's always that kind of stuff going on. Yeah. But you're right. We needed a handyman to help us with something on this house we just moved into. A handyman comes up the driveway and he's wearing this giant light blue T-shirt that has a Native American woman on her knees, opening her arms up to a giant wolf on the other part of his shirt. I was like, "God, that shirt." He's like, "I know." He's like, "I love tie-dyes." How is this not going to go well? If everybody would just slow down and celebrate that guy's shirt. We just would slow down.

Susie Moore:

I know. I know.

Rob Bell:

If we slow down, it's a really... These are good episodes we're all in. It's a good show. These are good episodes. Who knows what's going to happen next?

Susie Moore:

Yeah. Rob, you and I have this mutual friend, Amy Purdy, who is wonderful, and her and I had a conversation about you and I was like, "Yeah, Rob says if you're not... Like, noticing the shirt, the lady and the wolf. Like, if you're not chatting to the nurse at the party. You tell a story about a Frisbee. There isn't even really an ending in Chicago. You tell these stories and you say, "Look... Well, I'm paraphrasing a bit, but you're like, "If you miss it, you're not in on the joke." And it's kind of like that portal into eternity.

Rob Bell:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well said.

Susie Moore:

Following your work, listening to your podcast, consuming your books and everything is at robbell.com. Everything is listed; your books, your events, new things are being announced all the time.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. I'm also going to probably have a sandwich, go for a bike ride. You know what I mean? It's all kind of...

Susie Moore:

Oh, yes.

Rob Bell:

By the way, when our daughter was born, I knew this graffiti artist and I had this photo of our daughter, Violet, and I asked him, "Could you make me a giant painting of her face?"

Susie Moore:

Oh my gosh.

Rob Bell:

Look at that. Isn't that great?

Susie Moore:

You can see it behind Rob right now. Yeah. Wow. It's gorgeous. It's really good. Yeah.

Rob Bell:

Isn't that cool? Yeah.

Susie Moore:

Wow.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. We get to do some really enjoyable things, but it's all doable, talking to you here.

Susie Moore:

Letting it be easy.

Rob Bell:

After that sandwich, maybe my daughter and I, she's going to be done with school this afternoon and she's going to walk into town. I'm going to meet her at this art store. We're going to buy some supplies. Yeah, it's good.

Susie Moore:

Oh my gosh, Rob, yes. Yeah. Pay attention friends. Okay look, this is available to us. Pay attention. No, work till your eyes bleed. Wait, [inaudible 01:12:00]. So Rob, two last questions for you. First, everyone head to Rob Bell. If you don't listen to the RobCast, you are missing out. Dedicate your life to the RobCast. It is so good. I live for it. You'll actually notice so much I share from Rob. When you listen, you'll hear a lot of me repeating Rob. Okay. Two last questions, Rob. Number one, if you had a message, say a group of say 16 to 18 year olds and you had 30 seconds and it was 5 million of them, and it was like, "Rob Bell's message." And today, I know it might be different to what it might be tomorrow, but what would your message be?

Rob Bell:

Oh, I wouldn't have one. I would ask them questions.

Susie Moore:

Even better. Curiosity.

Rob Bell:

I would ask them questions about what it's like to be them, because we want to be seen and witnessed before anything else. So one more person who's giving them a message... Yeah. Nah, we need to be... What we want is to be seen. I would ask them questions and see them.

Susie Moore:

And then finally Rob Bell, because I have to let you go, why?

Rob Bell:

God, 5 million kids. That would take a while.

Susie Moore:

You'd be sticking around a while.

Rob Bell:

Yeah. That'd be really, really interesting. Okay.

Susie Moore:

Rob, what's one thing that you do in your life consistently that allows it to be easier?

Rob Bell:

I take a deep breath and remind myself that it's good to be Rob Bell. It's good. It's good to be you. It's good to be all the people listening to you. And whatever it is... Kristen will sometimes turn to me, especially if something's got [inaudible 01:14:10], she'll turn to me and she'll say, "I wonder how this episode ends."

Susie Moore:

Rob Bell.

Rob Bell:

That's what I'd say.

Susie Moore:

Thank you.

Rob Bell:

Wasn't this fun?

Susie Moore:

My gosh. I hope you'll come back.

Rob Bell:

Okay. We'll do it. We'll do it.

Susie Moore:

Rob Bell, what an honor, privilege, joy. Thank you so much. Just stay tuned my friends until next time, Rob is coming back.

Rob Bell:

Excellent.

Susie Moore:

Until next time. Oh, fab listeners, love and ease.

Hey friend, I've got something really cool for you. I want to give you free access to my signature course called Slay Your Year, which typically sells for $997. You can check it out, all the details at slayyouryear.com. All you have to do to get access is leave me a review. Leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a snapshot of it and send it to info@susie-moore.com. That's info@susie-moore.com and we'll get you set up with access.