Katie Gatti-Money With Katie

Welcome to Let It Be Easy with Susie Moore.

Susie Moore:

Is money on your mind right now? Well, I can tell you it's what I'm asked about constantly. I know that everything is so uncertain. And I know we use this word uncertain so much. But truly heading into 2023 everything is really up in the air and there are so many questions, so much news, so much information, so much overwhelm when it comes to understanding money, what to do with it, what we need to know about it. And this name kept coming up in my life, well, this handle that's become very, very popular, especially for people under 35, Money with Katie. I first heard about Money with Katie from my friend, Farnoosh Torabi, host of the awesome podcast, So Money. And Katie Gatti is this real voice of money for the younger generation. And when I started following her, I became just so obsessed with her videos, her breakdowns, her ability to really make the complex really tangible in our lives and understanding how to make money moves, how to understand what's happening with the government, with inflation, with taxes, how to save.

Katie is really interested in acquiring wealth at a young age and being really in control of personal finances. And she really covers all topics pertaining to money in the most honest, thought-provoking real way. And so I had to reach out to Katie to have her on the podcast to help answer to your money questions and to help us understand what we should know now, what we need to be doing now, and how money is constantly changing yet remains a very powerful force in our lives. I think that you are going to love this conversation because Katie is fresh, she doesn't hold back on her blog. She shares her own reports of exactly how she spends and saves, what she's focused on right now with money. And she really doesn't hold back in this conversation with me. So I'm so excited to give you right now, Money with Katie.

Money with Katie, is that how everyone refers to you now? Just as Money with Katie, Money with Katie.

Katie:

That's like how I refer to myself now, honestly, it's a bit of a problem.

Susie Moore:

It's me, it's Money with Katie. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Katie:

Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor.

Susie Moore:

I first found out about you through our mutual friend Farnoosh Torabi, who I love so much. She's also a business partner of mine in a cool live event that we co-host in New York City, and she was raving about you. And then two or three of my friends told me about your podcast.

Katie:

Wow. Really?

Susie Moore:

Yes, girlfriend, you are making the moves. People are paying attention-

Katie:

Well, we love that word of mouth. I am like, do we need a referral code, an affiliate link? I'm like, damn, okay. I love this.

Susie Moore:

Ye., yes to all of those things truly in expansion mode. But I just thought, wow, how cool that a woman in her 20s is being so honest, transparent. You can see your expenditure reports. I mean you put it out there, Katie.

So my first question for you is why is money a topic that you are so passionate about and something that you can essentially dedicate your entire career to?

Katie:

I think for me, it really started in my early 20s because up until I started working full-time when I wasn't earning money in earnest, had part-time jobs as many of us do. But when you're a student, you don't have a salary. You're not really bringing home meaningful money for most of us. So, I didn't really think much about money until I started earning money at my full-time job and got my first salary. And that was kind of when I had that light bulb moment of I wasn't earning a ton, but I was certainly earning more than I had ever earned before and it was more than I had anticipated earning, frankly. So it was kind of a realization that struck me 6 to 12 months into working full-time that, hey, I'm getting this paycheck, but I'm able to pay my bills and pay my rent and stuff, but I don't really feel like I'm making progress. I'm not building wealth. I don't even think those two words were in my vocabulary. I just had this vague sense of I'm adulting incorrectly. I should be doing something else with this money that I'm receiving for my labor.

And when I started to learn about personal finance, mostly just to solve my own problem of feeling like I didn't know anything, it became very apparent to me pretty quickly that having money and not having money, the entire trajectory of your life is going to be different. I would say, outside of the person you marry there's hardly another component of your life that is going to more dramatically impact what type of life you can live then how much money you have. And I think that on some levels that's kind of dystopian and kind of sad. But at the same time, it is the context and the framework that we exist within. So I think for the rest of my life, the chances that I'm going to continue to live in a world where how much money you have matters, it's probably behooves me to care and know and work within that framework.

So, I think that was really kind of the aha moment of if you start getting it together in your 20s, your entire life will be different. If you invest more in your 20s, you will have twice as much money at retirement than if you were to wait into your late 30s or early 40s. And I know for some people that can be discouraging if they don't find that message in their 20s and they are in their 30s or 40s thinking, oh gosh, now I have to catch up. It's not to say that that can't be done, just that if you start early your road is going to be a lot easier. So I think that that was kind of where it stemmed from and just seeing the opportunities and ease and convenience that money can provide.

I mean even now when I think back on my first couple of years working and making a very average salary compared to my lifestyle now and what my income affords me to do, it's just kind of night and day, honestly. And I can only imagine how much more easy and convenience it gets at the Kardashian level of wealth because clearly a completely different universe. But it's just such a consequential facet of life and it tends to be the one that we dance around and never directly address with one another.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. And I find Katie that as a life coach in my membership with the people I've worked with, I can talk about anything. I always say nothing's off limits. We speak about grief. We speak about sex. We speak about sexuality. I mean, it's all on the table, right? Because life has layers, complexities, I tell you the money conversation we have the most stuff attached. It's the one that is the most tense, the most heated. Brings up a lot of feelings of worthiness. Why is it-

Katie:

Doesn't surprise me.

Susie Moore:

Why is it, do you think, that talking about money is something that we avoid, something that we find so uncomfortable? We'll work our lives away making money, but not really understand it-

Katie:

Never address it. I know. I mean, the crazy thing is when you really think about it that way and address it in that way, it's like, oh my God, that is ridiculous. It's the thing that we trade all of our life's energy for and yet we are so comfortable just completely avoiding it. Kind of just going from month to month and hoping for the best.

So I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up worthiness. I think it is certainly a function of, I will call it late capitalism or a society like America where I'm going to say how good of a person you are or how hard you work. A lot of these things are very wrapped up in your financial outcomes. We tend to think if you're super wealthy, you probably did something to deserve that. And if you're super poor, you probably did something to deserve that too. And maybe not on a conscious level, but subconsciously I think we tend to all buy into that ethos or that way of thinking about things.

So if we are someone that does work really hard or thinks of ourselves a certain way, but we don't really have very much money or we always find that we're struggling with money, it can feel like a real personal failure or that it's a sign that we are doing something wrong or that we are not worthy. Not to mention the fact that you also have the kind of upbringing, the stories that you inherit from your parents about money. Many of us inherit not so fun stories more than we inherit actual money from our families, unfortunately.

So I think that that certainly plays into it too, that you kind of grow up thinking about money a certain way. And that's not to say that two people experiencing the exact same type of financial life as a kid are going to walk away from it and think the same thing. You could have one kid that grows up rich that then doesn't really care about money because they totally have a sense of security around it. They have no sense of lack. They've always had their needs met. So they're very blase about money. They don't care. You could have someone that grows up super rich that that's all they care about because they know what it's like to be super rich and they want to continue to be. So I don't know that there's even a one-to-one relationship between the way you're brought up and how that manifests in you and the way that it adapts to your personality.

But I think it almost certainly comes down to personal worthiness and what we assume our financial standing communicates to the world around us.

Susie Moore:

Yes. Yes. It's interesting actually, Katie, because my husband and I have such different backgrounds. I grew up on welfare. We had nothing, only donation box clothes, toys, living in domestic violence shelters. So that's one end.

Katie:

Wow.

Susie Moore:

My husband's parents are still married. He went to a good school. It was very safe, stable. Actually, because you know that kids and money are the two biggest reasons people divorce. So we went to therapy twice because of money. I didn't want to share mine because I was always the breadwinner. Because I always worked really hard to achieve my goals. And I was like, I don't want to share money. I also support my mom financially. So I was like, that might be taken from me. So that led to this awesome couples kind of therapy session, these sessions that we had. And I realized so much of what you just said, the stories, the backgrounds, the associations, the meaning.

But, you are very open, you said that you and your husband don't share money. So could you tell us a bit about that? Yeah, I'd love to just hear.

Katie:

Yeah. So our financial picture is interesting. So when we got married, we had roughly the same amount of assets coming into the marriage. We had roughly equal net worth. So we never signed a prenup or anything. He's an attorney, so we talked about it. But he was kind of like, I mean even if we were to independently protect what we're coming in with, it's the same amount of money on either side basically. So we didn't end up doing that, and we did not retroactively combine our net worths, the money that we had in independent accounts coming in. But we did combine everything moving forward.

So now our respective incomes both go into the same joint checking account. And all of our, however many credit cards we have, they all get auto-paid through that same joint checking account every month. And the excess that we choose to invest gets invested into a joint investing account. So, we are now probably 50/50, I would say, between net worth individual that it's all still in our own names but with the other person as the beneficiary if something were to happen. And then money that is considered joint property where if we were to divorce, then we would have to split all of that and go our separate ways.

But yeah, I don't know. I think for us, there was a period of time where we kind of thought about doing what I call the roommate model where you do just split everything. But to me, it raised more questions for us than it answered. Okay then if I earn more than you, than am I the one that's responsible for funding our retirement someday? Or do we have to live in a home that's less expensive because your half of it is... There were so many things where it was like it's just easier for us and for our personalities and for our goals really to just combine everything that's coming in and work toward it together, but it wasn't always that way.

Susie Moore:

I love how you give so much practical advice, so many personal insights, truly you share so much online. I love it. No wonder so many people subscribe. I mean, I love a couple of posts that I saw from you recently and I was like, I've got to ask you about this. So you shared this story when you're like, I've got my life going on, I'm doing my journaling, got my meetings, having my sweet little soup for lunch, and then I see this girl on a yacht in Greece and she's got this Dior suit, and I'm like, you know what? This is a very real question. It comes up a lot. It's like how much, really... Because life isn't 99% on yachts, right? Obviously. I also sometimes do see people saving a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot and sometimes I think to what end? How do you strike the balance or what's your suggestion for striking a balance?

Because I love to have gorgeous experiences, but I think that sometimes it's hard to reconcile the live today versus life is long. There's an accountant somewhere who's angry. How do you reconcile this, the living and the responsibility, all the things?

Katie:

I wish I had a perfect take home answer of just save this much and that's the answer and whatever. I mean, that would be great. That particular video for the audience who's probably not familiar, I posted this video talking about how the majority of my life is very mundane and normal. I do my little at-home workout. I work for 12 hours a day. It's like this very normal life and how sometimes I'll get on Instagram and I'll see other women my age who are on the yacht in Greece in a Dior bikini with Lil Jon & The East Side Boyz. And I'm like, how? How? Because frankly, I know what some of these people do for a living. I know how much I earn. And I'm like, am I just not able to do that because earning the amount that I want to earn requires working 24/7 and so I literally cannot take a week off whenever I want to go to Greece.

So there was some level of humorous bitterness in that of how are you doing this? In this economy, what?

Susie Moore:

We all feel this. We all feel this.

Katie:

How is this happening? There's certainly some of that, and it was mostly intended to be kind of a joke. But, what you're getting at is absolutely the balance of balancing the boring responsible side of ourselves with the fun YOLO, tomorrow is not guaranteed side of ourselves. That is the quintessential question that governs how we manage money. And I don't have a specific everyone should do this answer, but I do have what I do. And what I do and how I think about it is I kind of have this overall goal for my life. And when I think about that goal, it involves a lot of time freedom and not having to be accountable really to an employer or to a source of income.

And I'm really happy right now that my full-time job is being Money with Katie and writing. But it is a lot of work, just the amount of time that it takes to make the videos, to keep up with the content calendar. It's not like a job where if you take PTO and you leave for a week you can just ghost your channels. We're posting 52 episodes, 52 blog posts, 300 videos a year, probably more frankly. And so, you never feel like you're really done. You kind of always have to keep going. And so when I think about my kind of happy ending, if you will, it's really reaching freedom to where if I decide I don't want to publish something for two months, I can just not, and my lifestyle is not dependent upon me hitting these benchmarks.

And for me financially, tactically, that looks like having around $3 million. I mean that's really, if we're being candid-

Susie Moore:

Cash.

Katie:

Yeah, like invested that I can then draw down from in perpetuity. And my husband and I have just talked about how we would really like to reach that point, but $2.5 to 3 million net worth in our early 30s. And in order to do that, we have to save majority of what we're taking home right now. I always am kind of thinking when I want to have a really cool experience, we went to Scandinavia for our honeymoon. I love Scandinavia. And really wanted to go to Copenhagen and go to Norway and stay in all these cool places. And so we spent several thousand dollars on that trip. And at the time, I do always kind of have that question in the back of my mind of, well, how am I delaying my eventual freedom with this purchase? And sometimes you're like, yeah, it's not really worth it. Yeah, I'd rather get that much closer to my goal. And other times you're like, no, I don't really care. If I have to work an extra month at age 33 because I'm doing this, fine. Not to be morbid but, I don't even know if it'll be alive at 33. Things could happen between now and then.

Susie Moore:

It's true, yeah.

Katie:

You don't know for sure that you're going to be around, but you hope you are. You plan as though you will be. And so I've definitely gotten better about even doing frivolous things. I bought two pairs of Chanel shoes this year, so I've spent probably $3 to 4,000 on shoes and I would've never, never done that before. But it's a practice just in the same way that it's a practice to reign in spending when you're super wheels off. It's also a practice to tell yourself you need to chill out a little bit and live a little, let yourself splurge on the shoes or let yourself take the trip. You only get to do this life thing one time, but hopefully you're going to live it for a while and you want the money to last the whole time. So that's how I think about it.

Susie Moore:

I love it because you keep your long-term vision always within your energy field. This is for a reason. It's not just for the sake of deprivation or because I hate myself or because misery is a state of [inaudible 00:20:09]-

Katie:

100%.

Susie Moore:

It's because you're like, I'm creating something. I mean, I have to say in period of my life when I've been very conservative with money, the only negative I've experienced, Katie, is almost like this feeling of would it be slight isolation? Because spending's fun. Talking about it, what you're buying, sharing it. There's something, oh yeah, I'm in, blah, blah, blah. Versus right now I'm actually in a saving phase and there is a slight loneliness or something to it. But really that's it. Would you agree? Have you felt that before the, yeah, I'm not doing all the things?

Katie:

Totally. No, no, no. I think you're right. Well, especially because our culture is so consumerist. All of our fun and socializing pretty much revolves around spending money and drinking alcohol, which also requires spending money,

Susie Moore:

All of it. Yeah.

Katie:

There's a lot of that that is true. And for me, when I think about those times in my life, I fortunately feel like I'm past it now. There was probably a 24-month period, I mean two years where I was really, really frugal and said no to pretty much everything. And to be frank, there are some things I said no to that I now regret saying no to. So I don't think that it's something that you should kind of have that blanket approach or that whatever that Dave Ramsey quote is where it's like if you have debt, the only time you should see the inside of a restaurant is if you work there. I think that's crazy extreme.

But I think about life kind of in seasons, and I think sometimes you are just in a season where like right now we live somewhere where we don't know very many people. I do work a lot. It is a little bit isolating. Like my husbands and I do a lot of fun things together and I know some people, we'll travel. But it's not the same as when I lived in a city where I knew hundreds of people and I could do anything any day of the week because there was always someone doing something. But I think it does come down to that seasonality and kind of honoring the season that you're in. And if you are supposed to be in a season where maybe it's a little more reserved and you're focusing on future you and you're really kind of putting your head down and doing the work to ensure that the freedom that you are undoubtedly going to want someday is actually something that you are going to be able to have.

I mean, I really believe that 18 to 24 months of intense focus can really change your whole life. It did mine. I mean, speaking personally, it definitely changed mine. So, I think there is some element of it where you kind of have to remind yourself it's not forever, it's just right now. This is temporary and there will be another season where it's a yes season and we're doing everything. But I don't think you can live in either one for too long. You have to go with that flow of life.

Susie Moore:

Oh my gosh, I absolutely agree. And I think just that the context of for now this is the truth, for now this is where we are. Because sometimes when we're in a position it can feel like it's never going to end.

Katie:

Yeah, Definitely.

Susie Moore:

Or this is it, and then we throw our hands in the air and then we're questioning everything. But I'd love to ask you, Katie, what's an old money rule that you hate and then a new money rule that you love? Because there are money rules. We know what grandma said, we know what our parents said. We know what Jan in accounting said about these are the money rules. An old money rule that you're like, nope. And then a new money rule, even if it's your own, that you love.

Katie:

So old money rule that I hate is that everyone has to buy a house and you have to buy the home. You have to be a homeowner. I just hate that because I think it's so prescriptive and frankly, I think if you dig into the financials, it's not-

Susie Moore:

Which you have. Yeah.

Katie:

This week on the podcast we had a huge deep dive that it's not always as much of a wealth builder as you'd want to think it is all things consider. So I think the pressure that we put on young people to hurry up and settle down. My friend Dave, I was just talking to him about this because he almost bought a house and then was like, you know what? I don't even want. This isn't even what I want for my own life. Why am I even entertaining this idea? He was like, sometimes I feel like some of the older folks in my life are hurry up and be miserable like me. [inaudible 00:24:43]-

Susie Moore:

Yeah Yeah, Dave.

Katie:

And he's like, I don't want to. I don't want to want my whole life to be yard work and maintenance on the weekends. I want to be able to move in six months if I want to. So I think that is a very limiting rule that also can be a little shammy, especially in today's world where majority of millennials, unless you are one of the top 1 to 5% of earners or you have a family that is willing to lend you or gift you a down payment, it's going to be really hard to get into a house that you actually want to be in and can comfortably afford. So I don't love that it makes people feel like, oh, I'm behind. Or it's kind of that rung on the ladder that you have to do. Not a fan.

As far as a new money rule that I love. So the one thing that's just kind of coming to mind I think is the overall FIRE movement, the financial independence, retire early and kind of the ethos there because I've certainly adapted it for my own life to be something that fits my personality more. But I do love that in the mid 2000s, early 2010s, you kind of had this group of, at the time, primarily high earning white tech bros who were like, you know what? We've run the numbers and retirement isn't an age, it's a number. And even though a lot of people probably would not want to be literally retired having nothing to do at age 35 or 40, it's so freeing to realize that, oh, this is actually kind of within my control.

I just remember there being a moment walking into work when I was probably 6 to 12 months into working full time and it was like 8:00 AM I'm going into the office, teetering along on my little heels. I got my lunch bag in one hand, my laptop bag in the other. And it was hit me like a Mack Truck, just this revelation of like, oh my God, do I have to do this for the rest of my life? Is this the next 40 years of my life? I nearly had a panic attack in the parking lot because it had sounds so stupid and so obvious, but it had never occurred to me that, oh my God, I need this job. I can't even exist if I don't show up here five days a week. Holy shit I am so stuck. I am so trapped.

And so discovering the FIRE methodology of it's a number, not an age. There are so many ways to get there. You can financially free yourself and truly be in control of your own life. Just such a light bulb moment for me. And I do think I would consider it a new money rule of the last decade or so, because I don't think that our predecessor generations that would've ever even occurred to them or I don't think it was even really possible for them in many cases. So it's certainly a new-

Susie Moore:

Aren't you so happy to be alive now?

Katie:

Yes.

Susie Moore:

I had this expression, the new rich, I think maybe it was Tim Ferriss who coined it, but love that being a real goal. Time freedom, vocation freedom-

Katie:

Totally, Four hour work week, yes, that exact same ethos.

Susie Moore:

I remember when I had my tech career I also also even noticed as a girl in my 20s, I'm going to age out of this. It's a young industry and just being really aware of the fact that really, Katie, there aren't really any rules. I'm doing the right thing, got my job, I've got my business cards. Look mom, I'm doing well over here.

Katie:

I'm an adult. Stamp my passport. I'm middle age.

Susie Moore:

I made it. Yeah, but you think about it, the safety, the security, it's not there like we think it is. But you only have to look around for five minutes. And the startup that I work for was acquired by AOL.

Katie:

Oh my God.

Susie Moore:

And there was huge layoffs. I mean I was on a programmatic team, which was a great team to see part of because it was new and exciting, but a lot of the traditional sellers, they were gone. Even some of the older engineers. And I'm like, huh, there are no rules. Truly when it comes to money, how you set up, like you just said, the FIRE as the rule.

So Katie, let me ask you this. What's your mission with the money work that you're doing? If you had to just summarize, follow Katie for this or Katie's mission is to what? Is it really tight? Do you have it nailed in? Are you like, I don't know.

Katie:

I think colloquially what I'll say to people is I just want to make more people millionaires early in life. I want them to have optionality and to see that it's actually within reach. But I do think it has evolved lately because I still very much want to educate around individual wealth acquisition for sure. But I do think that I have grown past seeing individual wealth acquisition in and of itself as politically progressive in some way.

Because when I think about some of the real problems with our society and country and the systems that tend to keep people stuck, the lack of universal childcare, the lack of universal paid leave, the lack of universal healthcare. Pretty much all of these things that in other countries the state just provides them, at least in other rich countries like the United States and then here, they're all privatized for-profit solutions that it's on you, the individual to fix. I do think that there is worth acknowledging at least the kind of economic framework that we exist within and noticing that your personal financial decisions do not exist in a vacuum and neither do you. You also exist within the cultural norms of this system.

So I think when you start to be aware of it, you can start to push back on it at that individual level and kind of see how it might be impacting you, but also frankly, agitate for change if that is the next right step. And I think the mission that I've been on since day one, I think we've made a lot of progress and we're doing a lot of good with the personal education and philosophy and "Fixing" things at the individual level.

But I do hope that at some point in my journey or in the journey of Money with Katie and its impact that we'll be able to impact things kind of at that collective or systemic level as well, because it's going to be really hard, I think, for individual exceptionalism to be the answer for everyone. I don't know. I chaff a little at some of the things that I used to really buy into. I call it girl boss feminism, which is like if I as one woman get really rich, that's feminist, but it's not really though. It doesn't really drive everyone forward. But what a convenient thing to believe, right? Because getting rich is fun and sexy, but-

Susie Moore:

The greater collective.

Katie:

Campaigning is not, or advocating for political change or demanding policy change that would help all women is not fun and sexy. So I think one of those things is easier and had more panache than the other. But I really think you need both. I do think that both are necessary and you can kind of look at both as solutions.

Susie Moore:

Who are your money role models?

Katie:

That's a good question. I really admire Chelsea Fagan who runs the Financial Diet. I think she has done an excellent job of putting her money where her mouth is as a business owner. She's the CEO of that company and she does not have the highest salary at that company. They have a four day work. She's very big on balance. And the fact that money is a means to an end, it's not the end itself. And just growing for the sake of growing or accumulating a bunch of money just for the sake of accumulating it. That should not be the goal. And if you really dig beneath the surface, it probably isn't your goal, but it's the obvious kind of scapegoat.

I also think Farnoosh, our mutual friend, because she has had such longevity in this space and brings such a... I just think that she is someone who's not afraid to say what she thinks and to ruffle feathers. And I think to look at a woman like that who has been in this space for over 10 years now and is just absolutely prolific and has had continued success saying what she actually thinks is very inspiring to me.

Susie Moore:

I think Farnoosh said to me, she's like, Katie's the next generation of voices. But isn't that wonderful to be connected and to be so supportive? I mean, this is an important conversation and as we touched on when we started, people want to avoid this topic. It's like you want someone to open their bills, they don't want to do it. They get stuffed. They need a drink before they could even open anything. It's like, how much debt do you have? Oh my God. It's like a sweaty, avoid, avoid conversation.

Katie:

Well, and that's the crazy thing is we had Gabe Dunn on of Bad with Money and they were talking about how there is some liberation in admitting that it's going to suck at first. Just saying this is going to hurt and it's going to be shitty and bad, and that's okay. I am going to embrace the suck for the time that it sucks because I know that on the other side of the suck is going to be a whole lot of relief and that it's going to be better.

I think the comparisons between fitness and wellness and money are so ample because some days you're like, I don't really want to exercise and the first five minutes are going to suck. But then you're in it and you're like, okay, I am glad I got off the couch. Now I feel better. You never regret it after the fact. So I do think that there's some liberation and kind releasing this idea that it has to feel good all the time. It's like, but it's not going to, that's just not the human experience. Especially if it's something you've been avoiding, it's a wound that you have been covering and protecting and not wanting to reveal for your whole life. I mean, yeah, it's going to suck at first, but it's part of the process.

Susie Moore:

It's part of the process. Also, I mean, what life has taught me is that what we avoid, hoping something will change or hoping there'll be an improvement. Don't you find too that when you also just face the guilt, like, oh my gosh, that's how much I spent, or the, oh, I didn't realize that this is my interest racking up, whatever it is. Don't you find that there is just even in the face of something negative, there is a piece to the not turning away?

Katie:

Oh, completely. Well, it's like when you tell someone the honest truth that they don't want to hear but you know that in your heart of hearts deep down in your soul being you know that is the truth. I absolutely think there is something to that, that there's peace even in maybe some guilt and shame. And frankly, not to invalidate someone feeling guilty or shameful because those feelings are very real as we experience them. But even with the credit card example, I always try to strike the balance between, yes, you should take individual responsibility and accountability for your choices 100%, but credit cards are pretty exploitative as a product. If they're going to send you a credit card when you're 18 years old and you have no idea how it works and no one's told you anything, yeah, that's probably not going to end well. Does that mean you're a bad person? No.

That drives me crazy sometimes is I think we are very loose on consumer protections here, and by here, I mean the United States. Where it's kind of like every man for himself, good luck. Only the best survive. Only the smartest survive. So I do think that even if you've made financial choices that you're not thrilled with in retrospect, you were doing the best that you could with the information you had at the time. You can't ask more of yourself than that.

Susie Moore:

Amen. And when you know better you do better.

Katie:

Exactly.

Susie Moore:

Okay, so this actually segues really nicely because I love to end with a rapid fire round, but I have so many rapid fire questions for you.

Katie:

I'll try to be concise. As the audience is probably picked up on I'm not a very succinct person, I'm a bit rambler.

Susie Moore:

But take your time because I want to hear everything you have to say on these. So this is my first question. What do you wish every 16-year-old knew about money?

Katie:

Oh my God.

Susie Moore:

If you could say one or two things. A 16-year-old who you could never see again, just know these things.

Katie:

I would say don't overspend on college. And I'm saying that only because I think we only take in the information that applies to us at the time. I could sit there and show an exponential compounding interest chart to that kid for 45 minutes. They'd be like, I don't care. I'm going to prom next week. You only care in your life about the decisions that are about to actually impact you.

So I think my biggest shout the advice out the window and drive away to a 16-year-old is be very conscious of that college decision because unfortunately, again, same story, we exist in a paradigm wherein there are no checks and balances in place. They will let you take out as much money as you want to study whatever you want. There is no one at any point along the line that will step in and say, hey, you probably shouldn't borrow $200,000 to study dance theory. That's maybe not the right path.

So, I think I would say really thinking about that college decision and the ROI on the time and money you're going to spend to get that degree and what you think you're going to want it for. And if it's even the right choice, it's not going to be for everyone.

Susie Moore:

And increasingly it's not we're seeing. People are making different choices and taking different paths.

Katie:

I love that too.

Susie Moore:

I love it too.

Katie:

I love that people are making more independent decisions about the path that is correct for them.

Susie Moore:

I love, love, love it. Okay. Most on your mind with money is 2023 approaches?

Katie:

Oh my God, probably the stock market and the housing market and just these recessionary indicators, I guess because the job market is still strong for sure. But I am personally not that I need my money that's in the stock market anytime soon, but I do think that the next couple years are going to be pretty meaningful for the US economy and whether or not we can dig ourselves out of this mess where you have this kind of myriad of problems. Like unaffordability of how housing, wage stagnation, globalization. I mean, there's just so many things, so many factors that are going to impact, I think where the US economy goes over the next few decades.

And I do think that whatever monetary policy and federal policy I think it's going to make a big difference. So that's kind of where my head's at is just like what is going to happen next? There's a really great writer named Kyla who published this piece called the Vibecession, where she's like, it's not a recession, it's a vibecession because no one can really put their finger on it, but the vibes are just off. And it's like people aren't losing their jobs, but inflation is high and the stock market is down, but then the next day it's really up. And so it just cracks me up because I think that there is this kind of collective, none of us know what's happening right now. It's probably because coming out of a pandemic, but yeah, that's where my head's at.

Susie Moore:

[inaudible 00:41:24] to follow you too for Money with Katie. Oh, I think I know this one, but rent or buy?

Katie:

Okay, I'm going to not be flagrant here. I would say just run the numbers and ask yourself if you actually want the responsibility of being a homeowner. It's a huge responsibility and it's in my mind a luxury. So I would say if you don't think you're ready for it, then maybe just don't, maybe just keep renting until you really do feel ready for it. So yeah, I would say I'm certainly not. I would never be like, you need to buy a house. I don't think that that's really my bag.

Susie Moore:

My favorite thing about renting, I'm such a proud renter and I've been a homeowner twice.

Katie:

Oh, really?

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Katie:

Oh, tell me more.

Susie Moore:

Yes. My first apartment was in Sydney, Australia. I saved all of my commission checks in my 20s, and then we purchased our apartment in New York, moved pre-pandemic, and it was a nightmare to sell during the pandemic.

Katie:

Oh my God.

Susie Moore:

We held onto it not wanting to for a long time because viewings, it was all just so tricky. And you know what? I am in no rush. Are you kidding me? I say this to anyone who listen. I'm like, the best thing about being in my gorgeous apartment right now is nothing in here is my problem.

Katie:

Yes. Oh my God. I say that all the time.

Susie Moore:

Nothing.

Katie:

It's kind of lit. Honestly. Things will break in this house. This house was built in 1900. I mean, stuff goes wrong all the time. And I'm always like, Robin, the light bulb on the porch is out. Please come do something about it.

Susie Moore:

Talk about the new rich. Right? I'm like I'm not dealing with the air conditioning anything. It's like I need some help, building link request-

Katie:

It's time freedom. It totally is. Oh my God. Wow. I hadn't even thought about it in the context of the new rich, but you're absolutely right. It's like you're prioritizing your time and your freedom.

Susie Moore:

Yes. Love. Okay, finish this sentence, bridge. Finish this sentence, Katie. Money is?

Katie:

Power. The first thing that comes to mind. I can't help it. It's true. As much as I wish we could get around it, it is.

Susie Moore:

You don't make the rules. Yeah.

Katie:

I don't make the rules. Money is power. It's just the truth.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. Favorite word for money? Moula, chedda, dinero.

Katie:

Oh my God. That's a really good question. I've never been asked that before. I like moula, let's go moula.

Susie Moore:

I like dough. Have you got the dough? Yeah.

Katie:

Give me the dough. That's a good one. I feel like we should ask Cardi B this question. I feel like she would have a better answer-

Susie Moore:

She would have so many [inaudible 00:43:59]. Moula I like too. Oh, biggest financial pet peeve, even if it's a small one?

Katie:

Oh, oh my gosh. My biggest financial pet peeve. Nothing is even really coming to mind. I think it's different within my own life, probably, like me dealing with my own money my pet peeve would be different than if you were to ask me my biggest financial pet peeve with the way or the attitude that we all collectively have about money. I guess in my own life, I kind of get irritated sometimes with the amount of bureaucracy that is required to deal with pretty much anything going wrong. I hate anytime you get defrauded and you have to... Oh my God, I had my identity stolen once. That was a fricking nightmare. It took up the whole week. Going to the police station, going to the bank, all the red tape and the regulation around... I think there are a lot of systems that are kind of inefficient. It's not a very good answer, but that would probably be my biggest pet peeve.

Susie Moore:

I agree. This is one thing I like about social media. You can shout out things too, and that often speeds it up. But yeah.

Katie:

Totally.

Susie Moore:

Now I think about it that's really mine. If there's a problem and it's not your fault, it's still an action you have to take.

Katie:

Yes. You've just put it perfectly. It's like it gives you homework because the bank screwed something up and you're like, great, well add it to the to-do list.

Susie Moore:

Thanks. Yeah, exactly. Oh, split check or everyone pays for themselves?

Katie:

So tell me more. In what type of situation?

Susie Moore:

I've seen this come up as a point of contention before because I'm a split check kind of gal because for ease, number one. Also for me, that feels like a good... So long as it's fair enough. If you go out for dinner and someone's having lobster Thermidor and caviar and you are only dropping by for 20 minutes and you're having a coffee, that's one thing. But I see it happen with bachelorette stuff and any group stuff, even family stuff. Do you believe in the, let's just keep it easy and maybe that could feel more elegant, or are you more like, no, let's keep it fair and everyone each to their own? Because for example, my brother-in-law's German. He likes to pay for himself. He said, that's how we do here. It's very fair.

Katie:

Yeah. Interesting. I could really argue either side of this one because I do think that if everyone in the group kind of has similar means, it totally makes sense to just split the check. I'm not going to sit there and be like, well, no, but you actually had two margaritas and I only had one, so you should Venmo me $4. That is exhausting, I think. If everyone there clearly has the means to pay for... I think it all comes out in the wash, especially with friends.

Susie Moore:

Over years, yeah.

Katie:

If you were friends with someone, I'm like, I'm more than willing to treat you sometimes because I know you're going to treat me sometimes too. So I think there's an abundance mindset around that kind of stuff. Though, at the same time, I do understand why. I remember going out to lunch sometimes with coworkers where we were all on very different pay structures, very different pay bands, and you're ordering based on the fact that you're an entry-level employee and they're ordering based on the fact that they're a senior manager. And you're like, I'm not really trying to subsidize part of your meal. In that case, I would definitely probably be like, I'd rather pay for myself. But, I do think the social and socioeconomic factors of the group you're with would definitely influence me one way or the other.

Susie Moore:

And would you speak up if everyone was like, let's split and it didn't feel fair? Would you go, actually?

Katie:

Yeah. Yes, I think so.

Susie Moore:

Good for you.

Katie:

Because I feel bad. I just know how it feels to be the brokest bitch at the table and to be like, I can't afford your glass of Veuve. I ordered water because that's all I can afford, but I still wanted to be here. You don't want someone to feel left out or they can't participate in social activities because they can't be a high roller like their friends. At least now post Money with Katie, I would feel comfortable saying something. I always feel like it'd be expected at this point.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. Oh my gosh, yes. I remember in my early 20s I was divorced and I was going through a lot of changes, and I would say ahead of time, I can come but I want to pay for myself.

Katie:

Oh, that's brilliant. Yes,

Susie Moore:

Because people will [inaudible 00:48:47], they had far more money, they were much older. And I'm like, I can afford 50 bucks and I'm getting the bus. So they'd either say, we'd like to treat you, and then I'd say, thank you very much. I don't expect that, but that's cool. But I can't spend 200 bucks on this lunch.

Katie:

Totally. Okay. I love that ahead of time. That's a solution. Yes. You set the boundary. You set the expectation ahead of time. So you're not doing the awkward, the bill is being passed around and everyone's throwing their credit cards in and you're like, nah, but wait-

Susie Moore:

Yeah, exactly.

Katie:

Good for you. This is why you're a life coach. That's great advice.

Susie Moore:

And by the way, there's nothing wrong with having a little less. Lifestyle dynamic-

Katie:

No, not at all.

Susie Moore:

There's nothing wrong with that. So love. That's right. Okay. Biggest splurge lately? I think you already shared yours.

Katie:

Probably the Chanel shoes.

Susie Moore:

Good for you. I want to see them.

Katie:

Probably the dad sandals. I know. They're very cute. I posted them and I was like, I splurged. And the amount of people who were like, girl, those are not it. I'm like, take it up with whatever. What's the guy's name?

Susie Moore:

Lagerfeld.

Katie:

Yeah, take it up with Karl Lagerfeld then. I didn't design them.

Susie Moore:

I'm sure they are perfect. So biggest spurge. What about your most recent or your favorite smug saving?

Katie:

Smug saving.

Susie Moore:

Yeah. When you're like, oh, I didn't spend money on that.

Katie:

Oh, a smug saving. That's good. I think to this day it's still probably the fact that when I lived in Dallas I had all these friends that were getting jobs at the same time I was. We're all the same age and we were all mostly making the same amount of money, kind of within $1,000 or two of each other. And a lot of my friends moved into fancy one bedroom apartments and were spending $1,600 a month on their apartment. And I got a roommate and lived in this not very nice building, but it was like $700 a month. I still to this day feel pretty smug about my roommate choices because I really went against the grain for sure. For years there probably four or five years where I was living beneath my means with my housing when my friends were kind of living it up and I did feel and do feel pretty smug about my willingness to rough it to save some money.

Susie Moore:

Yes. And that's the biggest outlay, right? The accommodation in life-

Katie:

Oh, for sure. Oh yeah.

Susie Moore:

You could get a $700 rent. Yeah.

Katie:

I felt pretty good about it. And I had a lot more money every month than they did because my cost of shelter was less than half as much. You can buy a lot of lattes and avocado toast with $1,000 that you're saving.

Susie Moore:

Crypto curious, yes or no?

Katie:

I'm a no on crypto. Just too speculative for me. I think everyone's risk tolerance is different. For me personally, doesn't pass my sniff check of my investing philosophy, which is very reliant on I need to understand underlying cash flows. I need to understand why this has value beyond just what someone else is willing to pay for it. How does this generate income? And so it doesn't pass the sniff test for me. But that's not to say it won't ever, just right now it's a no for me.

Susie Moore:

Your personal money philosophy in a few words?

Katie:

Oh, that's good. Probably that money is a tool. I think keeping that in mind can right a lot of wrongs. It can help you detach from the emotion of like, hey, it's just a tool. It can help you avoid hoarding tendencies or scarcity tendencies because you are recognizing that it's a means to an end, not the end itself. And I think it keeps it in perspective. What is the phrase? To every hammer everything looks like a nail. To a money blogger every problem looks like it could be solved with money. And so I think there's some beauty in recognizing that it's just one important thing in life. It's not the only or the most important thing.

If you don't have it, yeah, it's going to quickly become the most important thing in your life and I think a lot of people live in that reality. But if it's working well, if money is functioning well in your life, it should not be something you're constantly thinking about. It should just be there when you need it, but it should not be omnipresent. And I think that's kind of the weird paradox of wealth, where the richer you become the less money matters to you and the less you have to think about it. So I think when we think about the wealthy and we think like, oh, they only care about money. But it's like on the contrary though, they probably are not thinking about money very much because they no longer have to. And when you're trapped in a cycle of poverty or near poverty, it's the only thing that you can think about because you're in survival mode 24/7.

Susie Moore:

Yes, I heard this, Katie, maybe it was from you actually, that money's like oxygen in that way. If you don't have any... But if you have loads of it, you're like, oh, it's not the thing.

Katie:

Whoa. No, that wasn't for me. But I do love that quote. That's a perfect analogy.

Susie Moore:

But the tool, I love it. Okay, and final question from the Let It Be Easy podcast. What's one thing that you do every day that allows your life to be easier?

Katie:

I have my go-to money answer of, I have a cleaning lady. I outsource my food prep to someone else. But I do think, have you ever heard of The Class by Taryn Toomey? It's this New York based exercise class. It's a little woo-woo, but I do like me some woo-woo. So I do that every morning and even when I don't want to, I do find that it is something that... It's like you got to have your routine. And when I start my day that way, I know that no matter what else happens I'm going to be in a better spot to deal with it. So I take the time, take the hour. Yeah, I think that little ritual, it's a daily practice that you don't have to have gobs of money to engage in, but definitely has been a big game changer for me.

Susie Moore:

Katie, oh my gosh, thank you. I hope you'll come back.

Katie:

Oh my gosh. This is so fun. Thank you so much for having me, Susie.

Susie Moore:

Oh, Katie, where do people go to follow you to access all of your really cool breakdowns, your blogs? Where should we drive everybody today?

Katie:

So you go to MoneywithKatie.com that's kind of the main hub. Follow Money with Katie on Instagram and Twitter, that's probably where we're most active. And then the Money with Katie Show on podcast networks everywhere, wherever you get your podcasts.

Susie Moore:

Money with Katie. Nice and easy. Thank you so much for being here. Until next time, so much love to you.

Hey friend, I've got something really cool for you. I want to give you free access to my signature course called Slay Your Year, which typically sells for $997. You can check it out, all the details at slayyouryear.com. All you have to do to get access is leave me a review, leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a snapshot of it and send it to info@susiemoore.com. That's info@susiemoore.com and we'll get you set up with access.