Only Our Thoughts Create Our Stress with Byron Katie

Welcome to Let It Be Easy with Susie Moore.

Susie Moore:

Oh, my gosh. I am freaking out about delivering this interview to you today, because the one and only Byron Katie has changed my life. And you're going to find out why and how in this exclusive interview with her and I. In fact, I can't think of a cool or better interview to kick off the Let It Be Easy Podcast with. Byron Katie, is one of my very favorite authors and favorite spiritual teachers, if not my very favorite spiritual teacher. And if you know me, that's saying a lot because I've read all the books, and done all the things, so I can curate the very best stuff for you. And this is what I'm delivering you for you specifically today. I mean, Eckhart Tolle loves Byron Katie, Martha Beck loves her, Liz Gilbert loves her, you will love her.

I've personally worked with a Byron Katie certified coach for years, and I tell my coach that if The Work itself, which is what Byron Katie created, The Work, were a superpower, it would be called, the problem dissolver. Because I've never done The Work use Byron Katie's method, and not worked out a problem in my life and have it just disappear. I go from stressed out to, could I say almost saintly, and my problem just no longer causes me stress after I go through Byron Katie's questions, after I go through The Work itself.

Now, to put it simply, The Work is four questions that, when applied to a specific problem, enable you to see what's troubling you in an entirely different light. These questions are magic, pure magic, and they're deceptively simple. The four questions are as follows, number one, "Is it true?" The problem you have, what you're thinking and believing, is it true? Number two, "Can you absolutely know 100% without a shadow of a doubt that it's true?" Number three, "How do you react? What happens when you believe that thought?" And then number four, "Who would you be without the thought?"

The next step of The Work are the turnarounds, which are a way of experiencing the opposite of the thought that you are believing. For example, if you have the thought, "My husband should listen to me." It could be turned around into, "I should listen to my husband, or I should listen to myself." How can all advice to others be self advice? How can so much of what we believe actually not be true? You'll find out in this interview, oh, my gosh.

In 1986, Byron Katie was 43 with three children unhappily married, and suffering from depression, agoraphobia, overeating, and addiction to codeine and alcohol. This led her to living in a halfway house. One day, she was lying on the floor because she didn't feel worthy enough to sleep in a bed, and a cockroach crawled over her foot. Stick with me here, friends. When she opened her eyes, she said, "It was as if something else had woken up within me. Something else opened its eyes. It was looking through my eyes." She had this epiphany, and I'm so grateful she did. Very few times in history are there's such moments of enlightenment that can change the course of a life, and the millions of lives who were touched by that person, and that's who Byron Katie is.

Because in that moment, the four questions appeared in her consciousness, and it woke her up, and so many millions of people since. She had this epiphany that it's only our thoughts and beliefs that caused our stress and suffering, only our thoughts and beliefs that cause our stress and suffering. And nothing external. Nothing, no-thing. My gosh, I cannot wait for you to hear this. Please leave me a comment, I'm so honored to bring to you today, Byron Katie.

Susie Moore:

Byron Katie, queen of the world, in my opinion, congratulations on 20 years of Loving What Is. Truly, I've read this book so many times, and to get the revised version that's out this year to mark the anniversary, with the app, with the new additions in here, thank you for your work you do, first of all.

Byron Katie:

I love it so much, and I love that it benefits others.

Susie Moore:

I cannot tell you truly how The Work has saved me, how I've created so much content around. My latest book is called, Let It Be Easy, which is all about essentially questioning our thinking, questioning the beliefs that you have, the suffering, the stress that comes with everything that we attach, to everything. And truly, The Work, has been such a guiding light for me, and I know you've created your beautiful four questions which we keep coming back to, we have these amazing turnarounds that we'll discuss. But I've said, Katie, that if The Work were a superhero, it would be, the problem dissolver.

Byron Katie:

Yeah, it's the way. And it really works because it is inviting us to experience the answer to everything within us. The, what? The, why?

Susie Moore:

And what I've learned from you is that I may not necessarily have a problem besides whatever it is that I'm just thinking and believing in that specific moment. So, one of my favorite passages from your book that I repeat again and again and again, and what I loved specifically about The Work is not only is it so deep, it's very confronting. It takes courage, as you say, to do the work, that's why it's called The Work. But sometimes it also just makes me laugh out loud, the things that you say, the turnarounds that come up. You say, "We only do three things in life. We sit, we stand, and we lie horizontal. The rest is just a story." So can I ask you then, Katie, what is then the truth? Because the ego loves the truth and knowing what's right and wrong and who's right and wrong, and if we're on track or if we're off track. So, could you explain this a bit to us the sitting, lying, and standing up, and everything else is a story?

Byron Katie:

What's true is that goodness inside of us, I refer to it often as the immovable, and then the ego's job is to usurp that. That is the thing, like, "I am the thing," speaks the ego. "I'm the thing, I think." That's pure ego. There's something that is immovable, and when the ego has us, which is in turn what we're thinking and believing, that brings on our stress. I would see you, me or the world as anything less than beautiful, as less than being for us as opposed to against us. That is what I would identify, and I invite people to identify in Loving What Is, identify what they're thinking and believing. And then to get very quiet, and sit in this meditation of questioning through those four questions, questioning what we're thinking and believing that would cause us to oppose what is beautiful in the world. Or a lack of understanding really is what we're talking about.

But this immovable inside of us when we ask, for example, if we have the thought, "They don't care about me." And then I ask myself, "Is it true they don't care about me? Can I really know that it's true they don't care about me?" Then it's the invitation to get still to meditate, and to wait for wisdom to respond to that question. What is beautiful is going to meet the question if we get still enough to answer. So, what The Work offers people, it's how to get in touch with that immovable, love, goodness, it's like the absence of suffering. That is what will meet those questions if we are just patient enough to get still, and listen to what meets the question, "Is it true?"

And I love that this practice can give anyone who sits in this practice of inquiry, a mind that, Susie, it's like to have the thought. "They don't care about me." But it ends, this practice will give us a question mark that meets automatically everything we think about the world, ourselves, others. But it's like it feels inside, "They don't care about me?" You hear the question, "They don't care about me?" Feels like, "Is it true? Really? Is it true? Maybe I need to check that out." Because, how I react, when I believe that thought separates me, alienates me from my fellow man, anyone, or anything that would oppose this friendly universe.

Now, we don't have to believe that the universe is friendly, or this world is friendly. It's just that it is, and the litmus test is in Loving What Is. This book that I am so happy that the revision that is available to people, it brings a little more clarity to how to do the work.

Susie Moore:

And one thing that you say, Katie, is, "When you argue with reality, you lose but, only 100% of the time." And, "No one can hurt me, that's my job." Well, what do you say if someone is quite stuck on the idea that "Well, there has to be a truth, there has to be something objective that's true." Because one of your questions is, "Can you ever think of a good reason, a non-stressful reason to attach to that thought? Is there any reason to hold onto it?" What if someone's like, "Well, is it okay then just to feel good? If I feel good, if I feel happy and free, does that mean that I'm living in the truth?"

Byron Katie:

Well, if you're happy and free, why not?

Susie Moore:

We won't argue.

Byron Katie:

Enjoy it. And I don't see a problem there. Is our birthright.

Susie Moore:

I think that often we think we need to earn our happiness, we need to earn our freedom. Or, I work a lot with the entrepreneurs, Katie, and often one cause of suffering I know to be true is a belief that we're never working enough. Because there can be, as you know, you can create more videos, you can write more books, you can not sleep. It's endless what we could create, and a lot of the suffering that I see, and that I've experienced is, "Am I doing enough? Should I be doing more? Where's the line?" And you say, and this is fascinating to me, you say that when you become a lover of what is, there are no more decisions to make. You just wait and watch. So please explain that. Because I always think, "Isn't it my decision if I create more, if I do another book, or whatever it may be?"

Byron Katie:

Well, an example that comes to mind is like when you wake up in the morning, try not to get up. You do it, eventually, that body you see itself it gets up, and it maybe walks to the toothbrush to brush its teeth, and then it dresses itself. And other than what we're thinking and believing, that identifies us with that body could use a little work until we are just so in sync body-mind, and just loving that synchronicity it's living out of the absence of war. But it's like we wake up in the morning, and I have to get up, "Is it true?" Don't know. "Is it true I have to get up?" My ego tells me so, it says I have to get up. "Can I absolutely know that it's true I have to get up?" And notice how I react when I believe the thought. "It's not fair. There's something wrong. I didn't get enough." All of this goes on, and in our mind, all these thoughts. But, who would we be without the story just waking up?

Just waking up, and witnessing the flow of life, and playing off of what you said, Susie, Like I'm on my way to the toothbrush, "I should do more with my life. I don't do enough with my life," and all of that. Well, just get still. Notice who you'd be without your story. "Can I just brush my teeth? Can I start there?" And for some of us, that's not easy when we consider what we're thinking and believe, "I'm too tired, I should go back to bed. I think I'll call in and work and take the day off. No, I better not do that." Just brush your teeth, just follow the simple direction. And that simple direction it doesn't ask much of us, get a shower, brush your teeth, go to work.

And our thoughts are like music when we are compatible with them, and when we're not, we can identify them and question them. So this work, I just want people to know that these questions exist, so they can meet themselves, and who they are without their story. That it's not a dangerous place to be, and it doesn't mean we're going to be brain-dead. It's a way of living out of wisdom, a state of mind that we're at home in, that we're at home with. So, it's one way.

Susie Moore:

And when you say, because you've said that you realize one day that thoughts aren't personal, so they arise, we have so many different thoughts a day. You suggest whenever there's a thought that comes up that does create stress in the body, does create some tension, I love how the work always goes into the body and checks our reactions. Is that when we need to question when something creates suffering? Because whenever I think about decisions, so for example, I moved to Miami from New York, I feel like I made that decision. I don't have children, I feel like that's a decision. I started my own business, I feel like that was a decision. And sometimes I think that there's pride in our decisions too.

Like, "I made the right move." Or, "That person is making the wrong move." When we love to get into somebody else's business. Do you feel that when it comes to decisions, and the way that we look at our ideas of ourselves and the world, that it's harmful to have any opinion? Or, do you think that so long as the opinions are good and peaceful, then that's also our guide?

Byron Katie:

Well, we make decisions in life, and then sometimes the mind is at war with one of the decisions we've made. And the mind will talk us out of it, the ego will talk us out of it. And there's no right or wrong of it. It's just, Susie, where I go back, is getting out of bed is one example. I made the decision to get out of bed, and I still lay there, so much for that decision. Or I made the decision to stay in bed, and then I just get up at some point, and then the ego would say, "Well, I did it. I made the decision." But it could be there's something really powerful going on that the ego is taking credit for. And who would we be without the ego taking credit for this beautiful life that we live other than what we're thinking and believing? Life really is worth living and their fabulous directions without internal war going on. This work frees us up to do good.

Susie Moore:

Would you call that or part of that intuition, do you lean into that as a word or a concept, or not necessarily?

Byron Katie:

What is your definition of intuition?

Susie Moore:

When you feel called to do something, like to make a phone call-

Byron Katie:

I would just do it, because there's nothing to stop me.

Susie Moore:

Sometimes I find with The Work it's so simple, it's so deep. I find that some people do find it confronting, especially if they've had a belief for a very long time, many decades in a lot of cases.

Byron Katie:

We're confronting the ego, and we're asking, "Is it true?" So I have a love affair going with the ego, and when I ask it, "Is it true?" I'm not coming at the ego like it's an enemy, love is the power. So, "Something terrible is going to happen. Is it true?" That's how you react when you believe the thoughts, all those images of past, future. If you want a little fear and tear, get a future, if you want a little shame and guilt, get a past, and the ego will offer those up, and it keeps us from our best lives.

Susie Moore:

One thing that you've said, which I find completely remarkable, and I think that it's almost like heavenly, this experience to almost speak to an egoless person. You said that since you discovered the work, since your epiphany, joy has never left you, not even for a single second. So you don't feel novice, you don't feel rejected, you don't feel scared of the future. You said that you're a woman with no future. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Byron Katie:

If someone is rejecting me, I understand that. How could they not reject me, when I consider what they may be thinking and believing, how could they not reject me? Whereas my compassion, that's anything I would question anything that kept me from understanding another human being. Anything that would break that connection, that lack of understanding is within me, because it's that connection that was broken, it's I experiencing that, so it's my responsibility. And it doesn't mean I have to speak to that person, or meet that person, or ever see that person again, but if we should meet, I'm going to be connected. I look to myself, I don't look to that person. Oh, gosh. I don't know if I'm really answering your question. If someone said, "Byron Katie, I don't like you." That's okay with me. Why? If I believed about me, what they are thinking and believing about me, I wouldn't like me either.

The question is, Do I like that human being? They don't have to see me as this facade, this fake facade. They see me as I am, and it's up to them what they're believing. And it really isn't up to them, beliefs just happen, thoughts just happen. And do we attach to them? Are we believing them? And if we are more open-minded, which is what this work gives us, more open-minded, then everyone, as we consider the human race, they have a fair chance rather than we're just so stuck in what we're believing. Like, "People are unkind, people are cruel." And we have to wear a facade, and smile, and say the right things to be loved. Well, in my experiences, a simple version is, "Do I love the world?" It's not about does the world love me?

Susie Moore:

Oh, my God. This is so freeing, because I know that we fear criticism or if there's something unpleasant, so to speak, that happens, it's easy to go into a tailspin for a couple of days. And say, "That was wrong, or I'm so disappointed." Or I notice, Katie, that so much suffering comes from when our expectations aren't met about something like, "Oh, I've got a plan, and I'm executing my plan, and I'm on it." And then the outcome isn't what you want. You say, this is a quote from you, "Nothing comes ahead of its time, and nothing has ever happened that didn't need to happen." Can you explain that? If someone's maybe really working hard on something, or pursuing a dream, and it's not working out on their timetable, or the way that they hope.

Byron Katie:

Well, if I have a plan, and it just doesn't happen, then I just see that in that space something, I'm going to say this because it's my experience, because there's space for something better. And I get to see it, because I'm not so disappointed about I, I, me, me... I'm able to see what is in its place, and that I am not here to save the world. I am here to understand the world, and because it's my world. This is each of us. No two people live in the same world. You have your world, I have my world. And, "Do I love my world?" I'm responsible for that. "Do I understand my world?" I'm responsible for that. And other people they are to be responsible for it is what world would that be? I live in a friendly universe, and inviting the world to see that other than what they're thinking and believing they do too, this is earth school. And we come here to identify, and relate to, ultimately, the answer to, who am I?

Susie Moore:

And because I love how you call it earth school, and I borrowed that from you. I always say, "Well, Byron Katie says it's earth school, we're not here just to party 24/7. We're here to question the thoughts, question the suffering."

Byron Katie:

But maybe that is the party.

Susie Moore:

It doesn't feel like a party. I'm like, "I'm so disappointed. Wait, let me say, how is my ego involved now? Why can't it be on my timing? I know best." And I love how you differentiate my business, your business, another person, and then God's business. But it's funny how we think that we still know better. There's God's businesses-

Byron Katie:

The ego wants the last word no matter what.

Susie Moore:

And would you say that your ego doesn't exist within you anymore? You don't feel those feelings of disappointment?

Byron Katie:

It is like I see me in my mind's eye at breakfast this morning, but that's not me. There can't be two of me, the one at breakfast and the one talking to you. So, who am I? I need to make up my mind, or I'm going to live in the past and the illusion of the past, the illusion of the future. Now, I can say I had breakfast, but am I aware of who am I? As close as I can get to that in what we see as real time is, am I at breakfast? Well, that's me in my mind's eye. Or is it the eye talking to you now? And this is as close in earth as we can get. And, do I love this world? That's what earth school is about, to love the world.

I need to love what I'm thinking and believing about the world, has to match my heart for me to love it. Because the ego can't talk me out of that. We all know the authentic from the inauthentic, because there's a rub there. It's like if you think of it as music, it's matching that, ego took my music, but it's not serious. I can identify what that was, what I was thinking and believing. And I can get very still, and meditating in these four questions, and turn it around.

Susie Moore:

I remember I heard you once say to a woman, because I love watching your videos, and one thing that's so amazing about Loving What Is, it's dialogue. So it's back and forth, live, past dialogue with you and people who are doing the work with you. A woman who shared that she felt rejected, you said to her, I'm paraphrasing, but she's already living in the past, like if for that to be her experience now she was rejected. Which is, I suppose, an interpretation, but she's living with something that doesn't exist anymore. Like you just said, there's me at breakfast or there's me right now.

Byron Katie:

Exactly. Very good. Exactly so. There's the illusion, that's a state of mind. And then there's the real deal here, in earth school. It is, "I am sitting here talking to my friend Susie?" And that's a beautiful thing, not to be at breakfast, and not to be at dinner tonight, and not to wonder... to just really be present. To be present, and not to miss it.

Susie Moore:

And is this something that you have to remind yourself to still do? Or is this just now your nature? You are just living in this constant presence? Which I think is the goal, really. Meditators, so many of us we're like, "Okay, back to the present. Back to the present." Just thinking coming back. Are you always in this state now?

Byron Katie:

Well, anyone that sits in this work for a while, and really gets still in it, becomes a way of thinking, it's like an implant in our head that gets adjusted. Everything begins to make sense. I can talk about the past, I can talk about the future. There's no other way to talk in earth in the illusion of time, it's a school. Talk about past, future, but it's this love affair with the self. I don't live, and I'm willing to live myself, I look forward to living myself because I always have these worksheets, these four questions to come back to.

Susie Moore:

I have to ask you about these turnarounds because these are magical. And I find that I'll do a worksheet, and by the way, this is all free on thework.com, it's amazing what you make available, so generously you do the work every day. I've been noticing with people all over the world, so amazing. But I noticed that whenever I fill out the worksheet, and you say, "Be petty, let it out, let it rip." I do, and then I'm embarrassed as soon as I start going through it. And I'm like, "Okay, I've answered question number two." And I realized that it's not true, but I don't want the work to stop there because I still want to keep going.

But then I'm like, "Oh, gosh. This is really embarrassing. How, this person shouldn't have betrayed me, this person should respect me, this person should do what I know what's best." We end up laughing out loud looking at them. Why is it that the turnarounds you said, and this is again to quote you in Loving What Is. "All the advice you ever give your partner, for example, is for you to hear." Are there ever any exceptions?

Byron Katie:

Gosh, can you think of one?

Susie Moore:

Sometimes I think, because I'm all about The Work, and I'm all about accepting the responsibility, and I love how you give the example of the projector. The projector, and if there's a lint piece, it's us, it's our lens. Sometimes I'll think, "Well, I'm not lazy, though." If I think that someone's lazy, or if I'm judging them for being lazy, or if I think that someone should have their life a bit more together, for example. I'm like, "Well, I don't think that I'm lazy, and I think that I'm not perfect, but I've got a few things together."

Byron Katie:

If you get really still in that, how many areas does lazy involve? Like, "That person is lazy." Turned around, "I'm lazy." So I go back, "That person is lazy. Is it true?" And notice how I react when I believe the thought, those images of past, future, that fill in with images. And believing onto those images of past, future is convincing as it could possibly make it that that person is lazy, and it convinces me that person is lazy. This is pure ego at work. But who would I be without the thought, "that person is lazy"? And I just notice there's nothing specifically to notice other than what we notice.

And when I look at that person, maybe you know the story of the rabbit and the turtle, it's there. So maybe I'm just wearing myself out, and that person is not lazy, maybe they're wiser, maybe they know something about how to get through life that I could learn from. I become interested. "They're lazy." Turned around. "I'm lazy." Okay? "Well, no, I get things done. I really get things done. I'm not a procrastinator, et cetera." "I'm lazy," we're meditating, and I'm lazy in that situation. Well, I'm lazy not to have caught up with the veritables that are involved in that person's life. I don't know. For all I know, they're doing maximum. I don't know. So now, that person becomes fascinating to me. I want to know, so I'm connected.

So, "She's lazy." Turned around. "I'm lazy." And I just go, "Well, I'm not lazy." We have missed the whole point of inquiry. It's education, because every time we question ourselves, we are tapping into, let's refer to it as pure wisdom, but we need to get still. And then out of that comes connection, and compassion, and we become so open that we can work all day long, and not even be tired due to the lack of effort.

And, what tires us out at the end of the day? What we're thinking and believing all day, not our physical. We work out, and yeah, there's some of that, but where does the real exhaustion come? Where does the burnout come? Thinking and believing. Because bodies don't think, feel, or have an opinion. It's what we're thinking and believing as we identify as this body, this I am, I am Byron Katie.

Susie Moore:

Sometimes, I think I've experienced it in my life. If someone is given me a bit of advice, or a suggestion from a loving place, because I think we can always feel the difference. But just say that someone was lazy, or in my opinion, I'm interpreting that someone one is lazy. And I'd said, "Hey, I've got a couple of ideas. If you wanted to increase your output, these couple of things have worked for me." Is there a line where that could actually be helpful?

Byron Katie:

Say that to me. You have the thought I'm lazy, so say it to me.

Susie Moore:

Yes. You are lazy. You are lazy, but I have a couple of suggestions of things that you could do if you wanted to, that could increase your output.

Byron Katie:

Actually, thank you, that's really kind of you. And I'm lazy, I'm perfect, I take life really easy as I go. There's so many productive people in the world that I really have to.

Susie Moore:

Oh my, this is so good.

Byron Katie:

I'm so comfortable in my own skin. And then, I notice when there is something to really be done, I've got the energy and I fly.

Susie Moore:

Wow. So there's never a point where you think it's a good idea to maybe offer a suggestion? It's not like, "This could be-"

Byron Katie:

Well, I said it. I was really grateful because I didn't know until you asked. I [inaudible 00:37:21] answer, so you ask, and then I find out something about myself in response because I'm not a pretender, I'm authentically. Your question allows me to, it's like we're experiencing the answer at the same time, and there's a great connection there. No questions, just, "Oh, my life is about questions."

Susie Moore:

Oh, my gosh. A friend of mine, this has come up, because we all love to talk about you and your fabulous questions. And a couple of us in the past have had a couple of opinions, those egoic opinions about her marriage. Because she's a fine artist, she creates beautiful work, and her husband isn't very supportive. He thinks that she should go back to her accounting job. So I have this feeling, where I want to protect her, and be like, "Well, I want you to be supported." And I notice myself getting completely out of my business, but in my heart I'm like, "Well, I care. I care about her, and I care about her feeling supported. And she can create when she feels supported, and I want her to have that environment." And I know I'm way off, and I need to just really-

Byron Katie:

I just consider that kind. And I would experience myself as close to her as I do her husband. He sees it one way, she sees it another, and you see it her way. And I would really, if I were married to him, I'd want to know why. He is less than an artist, does he not appreciate my work? And if he doesn't, to be specific. Because maybe there's something he knows that I myself have been missing. And is, why? Or is it the money? You just really want to know, and as the wife in this case, I just really want to know.

Susie Moore:

And sometimes I can feel a little bit of stress on her behalf that I feel like... So, I just think, "What's the turnaround here? That I should support her? Or I should support me?" Is that what it is? Or, do I just need to mind my own business?

Byron Katie:

He should support her.

Susie Moore:

Yes.

Byron Katie:

I don't flip to turnarounds until I've done the four questions or preparation for the turnaround.

Susie Moore:

Right.

Byron Katie:

"He should support her. Is it true?" A good friend would say, "Yes, he should support you." In the world. A good friend in the world would say maybe that. And I can't remember where I was going with that. But, "He should support her. Is it true?" I don't know where he is coming from, so I just don't know. And it could be very valid, and it could be she doesn't know where he's coming from.

How do I react when I believe the thought? I'm angry at him? I feel small? I feel like he's not supporting me? I feel like it's unfair, and I don't know why we're married anymore? And on and on and on. And then who would I be without the thought, he should support me? Who would I be without the thought? Maybe without the thought, "He should support me." I'd be talking to him, "Honey, why? I want to know more. Maybe you know something I don't know. Maybe it'd make more sense to me, as much as I love what I'm doing and consider it a privilege. I want to know if I'm missing something?"

So, "He should support me." Turned around. "I should support him." So that takes me back to him again. Okay? So, why? Why is it you want me to drop this, and take on that other profession? I want to know, what is it? I mean, really don't you want to know, but an open mind is the key to our heart. A closed mind is the ego's world.

Susie Moore:

And this is the magic, right? Because I love that The Work does, just have you've illustrated right now, is you approach everyone with such high integrity. Instead of jumping to, "Well, he's not a supportive husband." Shut down. That's the only thing that he is. You're like, "Well, I want to know. Is there information?" Do you think that so much of our suffering is just assuming knowledge? Like assuming a hundred percent complete picture, "Got it. Know it."

Byron Katie:

Yeah. It's what the Buddhist call the I, No Mind.

Susie Moore:

And have you ever actually done the work with somebody when the second question, can you absolutely 100% know that it's true? Have you ever had someone sincerely say yes?

Byron Katie:

Yes, I have many times. Just say yes. This isn't about thinking no is the right answer. This is inquiry. It's inviting authenticity, not what I think authenticity is supposed to be. This work really takes courage. Self-inquiry takes courage. Oh, boy, to question the ego, that is pretty serious business. The ego doesn't exist. It's a state of mind that you can't reach out, and touch it, and hold it, and feel it. It's a state of mind. That's why I say it's nothing, but it is so powerful. It would have to be to identify as a physical object. So the ego doesn't sleep, so it's worth sitting in. It's like the husband, back to the husband, and ask it. "Why do you want me to give this up and choose another profession?" Well, when we're doing the work, I'm not arguing with the ego. I'm inviting to show itself to me.

I, no mind, when I take it to inquiry. Ego, I, no mind. And I take it to inquiry, I don't want to threaten the ego's life, it doesn't live in the first place. But it's identifying me as I am the one that lives with a husband that doesn't appreciate her, that doesn't believe in her, that doesn't respect what she's doing. And that's how we react when we believe the thought. And how does that show up? Through body language, through sickness, through physical ailment when it continues. And then he says something, and ego relates it right back to, "Well, he's always judging me. I'm just not enough." Whereas inquiry can break that spell, and it is a spell. The ego casting, it's a spell.

Susie Moore:

And like you said, given your experience when something doesn't work out, again, using these terms that you just use every day, something didn't work out for me. Even say a marriage isn't working out, many of them. I was divorced in my early twenties myself, and I consider the massive blessing that that was for my own education. But, do you think that sometimes the ego, because we do think we have a complete picture, we love to make assumptions. That sometimes we just take score of our lives too soon. We are straight to, "This is good or bad, and I know it right now." And we don't know the future.

Byron Katie:

We believe our thoughts, and we just roll on like good egos, just as the illusion of that, "I know more than nature." Susie, I just don't know. I don't know. And that leaves me with a childlike curiosity at the age of 79, just in this amazing experience of not knowing. With a way of relating to everyone in the world with the understanding that everyone in this world, everyone is who I believe them to be, they can never be more or less. And everything in the world is as I believe it to be, it can never be more or less. So imagine if our minds aren't noticed, what a narrow, small, dangerous world we live in. So we strive, and we work hard, and we succeed and fail. But even when we succeed, it doesn't mean sometimes we're any less fearful.

Susie Moore:

That's the truth. I find that as life changes, even if you hit certain milestones, doesn't matter who, we're about as happy as usual, we come back to our set point. And there's a passage in here that I love, it is chapter 6 called Doing the Work on Work and Money. And I know that money is a big trigger for the ego. It's such a measurement. And this is where you share, you are sitting up, standing up, lying down. And you said, "I've never seen a work or money problem that didn't turn out to be a thinking problem."

And then you say, "Some people believe that fear and stress are what motivate them to make money. And a clear, sane mind knows how to live, how to work, what emails to send, what phone calls to make, and what to do to create what it wants without fear." I believe that sometimes we think, "Well, if I take my foot off the gas, and just start meditating, and being all chill, if I start doing the work, I'm going to lose my edge, or I'll lose my hustle." What happened to my hustle that's worked so well up until this point?

Byron Katie:

I think that that's how people see if I get too peaceful, "What's going to happen to the adrenaline? What's going to happen to my motivation thing? I've got to my power, what's going to happen?" But the extreme opposite is true. I like to say, "If you're in a hurry, get still, and look how we stumble and fall." Whereas, we can save ourselves a lot of that with just living out of more wisdom.

There was a baby on the at home broadcast that I do in the mornings, and it was a mother and a grandmother with this sweet little pumpkin. This baby is just borrowing look like maybe a year old, but in this little high chair. And we were... oh, I'm not going to put my time in on that. Let's do it differently. Like you walk by, and there's a vase of flowers on the table and you accidentally, you're wrapped up in something mentally, probably. But you knock the vase over, and then you panic because there's water in it, and it's the carpeting and all of that, and it is going to break, it's valuable. And you are just caught up in it. Your movements so fast, so quick, and it hasn't even hit the ground yet.

So all of that is superfluous to the reality that's going on. Now, when you understand that, you can just catch the vase if it's possible at all, it is effortless, you see. So you're not in the future, and you're not in the past where, "Oh, he's going to be so angry." Or, "That was a special gift." No. Past, future, past, future. And then imagining it on the ground broken, all of that going on, and it hasn't even hit the ground. So, who would you be without all that going on if you were present? You just catch the vase. If it is at all possible, you've got it covered. And that's a way of life.

Now, if it's just not possible, then I get to see it break. Let's say it breaks, and let's say there's no rug or carpeting. I get to see how the sun hits it, the sun coming through the windows. I get to see the gift of it giving all the life it's served, I get to see the gift of the life it is serving all the way, and it is truly something beautiful. It is what is going on. And we don't have to notice. It just is going on, and that's the gift of life. But even seeing that, we don't see it. We see ourselves with a dust broom, or "How are we going to get it up? And, I'm late for work," we miss life. That's just like a visual of what's going on, and there's no way someone can tell us it's going on. It's like, "I don't have time for this."

Susie Moore:

Yes. And Kate, when you go through the world, and you see that that's most of us. We're almost unable to enjoy anything. It's like just say you get engaged, happy news. Well, now it's wedding stressful. Now, the wedding is over, got the post wedding blues. Now, I've got fertility questions. Now, we don't know where to live. Now, I don't know if my husband's going to be attracted to me two years later. When is the happy moment?

Byron Katie:

For most people, you're describing when they're asleep, and they're not dreaming.

Susie Moore:

Yes. And this is what you call The Work, right? Awakening.

Byron Katie:

Yeah, it's waking up to reality. Like the example I attempted to give you with the falling-

Susie Moore:

The baby?

Byron Katie:

The base. Yeah, the baby falling. We already have the baby in the hospital in our mind's eye. He hasn't even hit the ground yet.

Susie Moore:

Have you ever thought about where does this very strong dominant ego, where does it come from, and what's its purpose? Is it to help us awaken?

Byron Katie:

In earth school, it's just all an illusion. Like I had breakfast this morning, that's an illusion. In earth, "Get real Byron Katie, did you or did you not have breakfast?" Well, in earth school, yes, I did. And with what I'm learning in earth school is, I have no proof other than in my head. Now, if I ask my husband, if I ask Steven, "Did we have breakfast?" He says, "Yes." That's his experience. But don't you want to know on your own what is real, what is authentic, and what isn't.

Now, breakfast example is a big dose for some listeners, but other than in my head right now, I have no proof. And Steven can say, "Yes, we did." But he can't prove it either. And then if I see egg in my teeth, let's say, I see egg in my teeth, then I see, is that proof? No. This is proof of what I call first generation thinking. This is proof I have egg in my teeth. That's no past, no future, other than what the ego offers up. That's an illusion. Meaning, I can't take breakfast out of my head and touch it. That's what I mean by illusion, a state of mind.

Susie Moore:

I noticed this even, for example, in my own family, I've got four older sisters, and we even remember the past differently. We all have our own individual takes, and it's interesting.

Byron Katie:

And all four of you had a different mother.

Susie Moore:

Isn't that fascinating?

Byron Katie:

No two people have the same mother, no matter how close they are, not even twins.

Susie Moore:

And it's the same if you speak to two people who've been at the same company, it doesn't sound like the same company. Or even two people at the same wedding. One is like, "This is amazing." And one's like, "This is so tacky." Everything. And this is like the is it true question. You're just like, "Well, yeah, where is it? Where is the proof? Where is the physical?"

Byron Katie:

And it's not to really prove anything. This inquiry is about just, it's pondering how the ego works. And it's worth pondering getting still in because it's creating our entire world. Not the world, but the world as we believe it to be. And if we don't love our world, if we're not happy in our world, then that's what this work is about. This is our birthright. Freedom is our birthright. So this work, it's a way of inviting people to another world, to the world we have, not the world as it has been, or we want it to be. And it's always safe here. It's always safe here, we're always okay. And I'm challenging people to think of a time in your life, when other than what you were thinking and believing, were you okay, and to get really still in that.

Susie Moore:

Everything that I've gathered from you over the years, which I'm just truly, I cannot express. My appreciation is bigger than I can explain. And what I've come to realize is if something's loving, that's enough. And that's a place to come back to because that's what's real, and that's covered up by the ego with all the noise.

Byron Katie:

And it matches what really is going on, opposed to what we think and believe what's going on. This illusion of the knockdown that would strip us of what you just pointed to.

Susie Moore:

Whenever I do The Work, there is peace. I can't make other people peaceful, obviously, but I can be an example.

Byron Katie:

And we can also choose to become aware of the nightmare, the fear is rising in us, and identify them. And then question what we're thinking and believing, and just flip this crazy, chaotic world into something that makes sense. Not for everyone. For you, it's your life.

Susie Moore:

And freedom is our birthright, as you said. Happiness is our birthright. Oh, my gosh, Katie, I could talk to you for four years. I could just keep going and going and going. Everyone, if you go to thework.com, you get free worksheets. Byron Katie right now is doing The Work at home. You're doing free Zoom calls, what you make available, the materials.

Byron Katie:

We have a podcast too at home there. And Katie and I love that one so much. And then a little 99 cent app.

Susie Moore:

I have it.

Byron Katie:

It's just a [inaudible 00:59:11] while you're standing in line.

Susie Moore:

I love it. Yeah, it is called just The Work from the App Store, 99 cents. Best return on investment in your entire lifetime, I would say. So truly, thank you so much for being with us today, answering these questions so honestly, so lovingly. The work that you do, the work itself, it's some of the best information I've ever discovered. And as you always say, Katie, "Just come back to your own inner wisdom, what feels true for you." And this is what I just feel like it brings us home.

Byron Katie:

Susie, what Your little powerhouse out here pointing us all to good. And I appreciate that so much. Thank you. My mind is going, "This little light of mine I get as I look at you."

Susie Moore:

Wow! What a way to make my week. Thank you so much, Katie. Truly, thank you, thank you, thank you. Everything that you do, I'll continue to be a huge fan. I'm going to be doing a book giveaway too, this year. So Loving What Is, this is what the world needs, and we'll continue to need way after we are gone.

Byron Katie:

It's all there.

Susie Moore:

Thank you so much, so much, much, much, much, love to you.

Byron Katie:

Thank you.

Susie Moore:

Bye-bye.

Susie Moore:

If you like this episode, you'll love my free workshop called Become Your Own Life Coach. Head on over to becomeyourownlifecoach.com now, and I'll teach you how to coach yourself through any of life's problems. I'll see you there.